Wednesday, May 4, 2011

Avadon Out For Windows, Responding To Critics.


We finally released Avadon: The Black Fortress for Windows. So far, it is functional and selling very well. I am really heartened to the reaction to the game. It is doing way better than I thought it would, and it's doing me a world of good to know that a game I put so much heart into doesn't appear to suck.

Because my morale is so high, I am going to do something I almost never do. I am going to go to a forum full of people who hate my games, my writing, and the mere fact that I still draw oxygen on this planet. Namely, the Avadon thread on RPG Codex.

RPG Codex is an interesting place. It is inhabited by people who like role-playing games, but love hating them. It's full of anger and enough raw bigotry that I would never advertise there. But, if you want to keep your self-esteem under control and read bad things about a game you wrote, go there. Just don't ever let those people get into your head.

So, if you are interested in what it's like to write a game and get feedback from the vast madness of the internet, take a look at these threads (mildly NSFW). Here are some comments from the thread, and my responses to them.

"I love Vogel's games but damn the demo is so boring..."
"The demo area is small and extremely crappy"

Demos are always boring. Tutorials are always dull. There are two ways of doing a demo. One - Put the player in a training wheels dungeon and teach him or her enough to play the real game. Two - Set up a really big, flashy set piece to start the game, and have the player wander through it doing nothing.

They both have their points. I've done both. But tutorials are always work. That is life.

By the way, while my demos are smaller than they used to be, they are still some of the longest demos out there. My demos used to be longer than some other full games, but, to be brutally honest, that's just bad business.

"Anyway, party members not dying but being just unconscious and resurrected after combat ends. DECLINE"

When you're designing an RPG, there are lots of toggles you have to flip. Will people recover from their wounds over time or do they have to go back to town? Will the party jump between towns/dungeons or will the whole outdoors be explorable? Will items be automatically identified? Do you have to keep track of ammo for your bows? Each answer to these questions has its good as bad points. There are no right or wrong answers. You just pick what works best for the design.

There are people who will, for religious issues, say they will never ever buy your game if you make one of these choices or the other. Ignore them and do what is best for what you're trying to do.

Oh, and there are some people who will respond to things about your work by posting an angry smily or some other image meme. Ignore these people. If they had anything valuable to say, they would use words, like people, instead of jpgs.

"I do loathe the worldmap. A single large continent shaped like a rough circle does not an interesting map make. Dunno why it bothers me the way it does but it does. "

Oh. Come. On.

There is an important lesson here for indie developers. When you make a game with a small team, you have millions of decisions to make and little time in which to make them. There isn't time to second guess everything. For a lot of stuff, you have to make the call and move on.

When people nitpick, you can't take it to heart. You have to forgive yourself. People will always nitpick. To borrow a phrase from my favorite SF story ever, the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

"Got bored with the demo as soon as I was sent to the beginner dungeon to fight rats and spiders. What a lousy piece of shit game."

You are right. I'm sure those two minutes of gameplay were crushingly disappointing!

"It seems like he put in a lot of effort to attract the casual crowd. The "casual" difficulty mode for people who are "new to fantasy RPGs"?"

A lot of complaints that the early game, especially on Normal difficulty, is too easy. When someone says that the default difficulty should be harder, what I hear is, "You should make a pile of money in your backyard and set it on fire."

I make the default difficulty easy enough that 90% of players can get through it. If this doesn't give you a challenge, play on a harder difficulty level. That is why it is there!

Sheesh.

"Yep, Jeff fucked this one up a bit - although not as bad as some people put it. Give him some credit, go to TPB and help yourself."

By TPB, the poster means The Pirate Bay. In other words, he's saying to go pirate it. I honestly think that most of these complaints are not sincere. They're just pretending the game is bad to justify their pirating it (and playing the whole thing three times). Another good reason to be very careful about whose feedback you accept.

"I am seriously disappointed. Shittiest Spiderweb game so far. By a lightyear.  Will definitely not register the demo."
"Hope that it'll flop commercially"
"Started the game right now and I'm lacking words to describe my disappointment."
"Jeff Vogel went full retard"
"I wonder if Spiderweb is going to survive it..."

I think we'll be just fine.

As I said, the game is doing great. A lot of people are playing my bland, dull, derivative demo and saying, "Hey! Want more of that!" This is the biggest lesson for small developers. People who post on forums are a tiny, tiny portion of your audience. Read them occasionally. Pick through them for the rare tidbit of good feedback. But otherwise keep a respectful distance.

And, to those who have registered, thank you so much! I love flattery, but, in the end, there is no compliment better than a credit card number. That people are actually giving me their real, hard-earned money is incredibly flattering, and I thank you for making it possible for me to write Avadon 2.

Edit: I've closed comments. I think everyone who wanted to say something has had a fair chance. Thank you for the bits of interesting feedback. I will be doing more blogging on some of the issues raised. If you have more reasons why I am not cool anymore, you will have a chance to share them then.

79 comments:

  1. "RPG Codex is an interesting place. It is inhabited by people who like role-playing games, but love hating them."

    You nailed that right on the button!

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  2. I was going to write something along the lines of "I hope this blog post makes them angry" but clearly they don't need a reason to be mad in the first place.

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  3. @Milkman Dan: I don't actually enjoy making people angry. I wouldn't have responded if I didn't think I had a lot of good points to make about the nature of game design.

    - Jeff Vogel

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  4. As we say in Turkish, "it ürür, kervan yürür."

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  5. Well, I can only repeat what I said in that thread on the Codex: I love some of your other games (and I paid for them, buying directly from your company), but the Avadon demo is more boring (for me, of course) than the Chitrach caves in Avernum 4. You say the demos are always boring? Avernum 1 demo kept me glued to my seat and I bought the game a few minutes after encountering the Shareware Daemon! Avernum 2 demo takes you on a very interesting trip :-)! And so on... Based on the Avadon demo I'd honestly think you deliberately want to switch your target group. I hope you won't.

    And an unrelated point: the context in which TPB appeared in the discussion was the following: some people say the game improves right AFTER the demo ends. (E.g. Dhruin at RPG Watch.) The point was that the TPB version may actually convince some people who didn't like the demo to buy the game. (The sole point of the paragraph is to clarify the discussion there - no one is saying "GRAB VOGEL'S GAME FROM TPB, THIS WILL TEACH HIM A LESSON".)

    Anyway, good luck with your business, even if I (unrealistically, I guess) hope you go back to your previous style of design!

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  6. Huh. I guess some people really don't like missing out on the full agony of a leveling grind. Personally, I *love* the instant resurrection after battle -- so much better than having to go all the way back to town! It's not quite as wonderful as the Junk Bag, but it still is a huge way of cutting tedium. I think with those additions you hit a sweet spot with Avadon -- it's basically all the "fun stuff" and the difficulty levels match up nicely with their labels. Sure, I finished the demo a lot faster than I did with, say, Avernum 5 and 6, and had to play it through again before I could make up my mind as to whether to buy the game, but I figured some of that was my being used to how your games tend to start out.

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  7. Wow. RPG Codex used to be curmudgeonly, but at least not duh-duh stupid. It reads like Free Republic now.

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  8. Leszek: In general, if someone pirates a game, they won't buy it afterwards no matter how much they like it. Why would they? They already have it. Maybe they'll put it off, saying they just want to play a bit more and then they'll pay. But then the game is over, and they don't want to buy a game they've already beaten.

    That's why his demos aren't the full game and the Honor system for payment (though the protection is simple enough that it's very close).

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  9. As I said, the whole point of that paragraph was to clarify the discussion on the Codex. I'm not getting in any piracy justification argument.

    The main thing for me is that as a long-time Spiderweb customer I'm deeply underwhelmed by the Avadon demo. The demos of most previous games by Jeff that I own were clearly better. Based on the demo, the game looks bland and simplistic. But hey, I also don't plan to buy an Ipad any time soon and I love to play old, complicated games. I guess I'm not among the target demographic anymore and I have to respect that. Catering to people UNlike me might be the smarter business decision ;-)

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  10. Oh, brother...

    Look, let me settle this bit of dinky, overblown elitism here and now. IF you're a longtime Spiderweb customer, you KNOW that Jeff Vogel makes great games, period. If you let a demo, which by nature is NEVER going to be representative of the FULL version of a game nor it's overall quality (strengths and weaknesses included) "disappoint" you at this stage of life... dude, it's time for a new hobby.

    While you can accuse Vogel of "dumbing down" Avadon for new users (including many who don't play RPG's at all), you're sadly, not understanding that in order for the genre to expand its horizons, it needs to be willing to let a few new people into the club every so often.

    I'm sure those users who have iPads may also have a home PC (or Mac) and maybe (just maybe), they'll have bought Avadon and liked it enough to try Spiderweb's older games out. Of course, they might then fall into the reverse of YOUR particular whine when they find out those games are more challenging then they thought based on their experiences with Avadon.

    Being annoyed at a game demo is the same as hating a book excerpt, movie trailer, supermarket sample and so forth and so on. If you're willing to drop out from the class, man - I don't think you'll be missed, as there are a few new students who are eager to take your place.

    Although in a perfect world, I'm gathering JV wants both YOU as well as any new players who like his games to stick with them for as long as they're made...

    Just a thought...

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  11. @Jeff:

    Why are you always so surprised that your games sell a lot of copies. Like a well-known author you've developed a fan-base that will buy anything you make as long as it has the general trappings of a Spidweb game.

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  12. Wow. I thought you might be exaggerating about those forums but then paid them a visit. Worst web forums ever!

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  13. @vch: Avadon is very different from anything we've done before and it's a whole new property. That made me think it likely that it would do just OK. I am naturally pessimistic.

    - Jeff Vogel

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  14. I'm new to the Spiderweb world of RPGs. I checked out several Mac RPGs because of a good review and that they were in the Mac app store. For whatever reason I really liked that I could buy it there and read other reviews first in a standardized format.

    My girlfriend and I have been playing it the past two weeks and absolutely love it!

    We went for Hard difficulty and still found the first adventure a bit easy...but that has not been the case on adventure #2. :)

    Kudos to Jeff and the gang. I'll write a more full review on the App Store, but I've become a big fan of your work and will be checking out your next games as well.

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  15. "I am going to go to a forum full of people who hate my games, my writing, and the mere fact that I still draw oxygen on this planet."

    your hyperbole is very codexian.

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  16. Maybe it's sleep deprivation, but I think a really good selling point for Avadon is that you work for BRIAN BLESSED!

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  17. "I am going to go to a forum full of people who hate my games, my writing, and the mere fact that I still draw oxygen on this planet. Namely, the Avadon thread on RPG Codex."

    Except that, as far as I can tell, the majority of people on that site actually love your games, but think you've screwed up on this one. Although they do seem to be a bunch of dicks. Dicks with good taste, perhaps.

    "Pick through them for the rare tidbit of good feedback."
    And by good feedback you mean feedback that justifies whatever design decisions you made, right? Because there are examples of valid criticism over there that you have strategically omitted in favour of the silly stuff.

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  18. Jeff - don't take stuff out of context. I was the only one advocating piracy in the whole thread and I explicitly stated my reasons for doing so. Jumping to the Avadon thread...

    "Yep, Jeff fucked this one up a bit - although not as bad as some people put it. Give him some credit, go to TPB and help yourself. While I almost always considered this unethical for JV games this time it's a necessity to make an informed purchase.
    Why did he fuck up? The demo area is small and extremely crappy. [/quote]

    This is the proper context of my post. I was arguing that you chose your demo area poorly - which was, in fact, arguing in favor of your game. People on the Codex wouldn't purchase your game if they based their judgment only on the short, easy and bland demo - I wouldn't do so either.

    I realise that you're probably not overly happy that anyone's advocating using TPB to grab your games, regardless of his/her reasons - sorry.

    Cheers,
    mono.

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  19. This post was a terrible idea. That you think the Codex hates your games, writing, and existence shows that you don't know anything about the community. I would never have ended up buying all of the Geneforge games if the Codex in general wasn't so positive about them.

    Taking pot-shots at the community from your blog isn't keeping a 'respectful' distance - it's being a dick. If you want to discuss it then you should post in that thread. As one of the very few RPG developers who makes Codex-approved RPGs, you'd be welcomed.

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  20. I will download the pc version, but I am most interested in the Ipad version. I would like to see how that turns out.

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  21. @Greg: "Look, let me settle this bit of dinky, overblown elitism here and now. IF you're a longtime Spiderweb customer, you KNOW that Jeff Vogel makes great games, period. If you let a demo, which by nature is NEVER going to be representative of the FULL version of a game nor it's overall quality (strengths and weaknesses included) "disappoint" you at this stage of life... dude, it's time for a new hobby."

    I don't see how you can "settle" anything with false claims. Well prepared demos are representative of the full game, to the extent it's possible. You know, it's the purpose of the demo: to get the player acquainted with the game and convince him it's a good game. It worked well for other demos of Jeff's games: usually they really show the given game holds much promise. It's not the case with Avadon demo.

    And yes, as a longtime Spiderweb customer I know Jeff makes great games, but I also know some of his games are less great than the others. (Avernum 4.) This means I'll always check the demo before purchasing.

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  22. Wow. Way to take Codex posts out of context.

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  23. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  24. Really enjoying the demo. It's the most fun I've had since Nethergate (not that I thought any of your other titles didn't measure up).

    Definitely makes me want to fork over my cash and play some more. As soon as the budget allows.

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  25. I had exactly the same experience as you with an online app I recently launched. The first users complained incompetently - I ignored them. When the press reviewed the app, the reviews were very positive, and thousands of users are now happily using the app.
    So the mantra "listen to your users" must be taken with great cautiousness.

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  26. "When the press reviewed the app, the reviews were very positive, and thousands of users are now happily using the app."

    And yet - in the environment we have today, these facts do not, in any way, tell me anything about the actual quality of the work you've done, unless i'll try it myself. And when i'll try it - i'll more likely than not, speak good things about it, since it is a knee jerk reaction to justify my investment.

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  27. Complaints are screamed; complements are whispered, if they're spoken at all.

    For example, if someone decides they don't like the new auto-revive feature, they'll typically be very vocal about it. They'll either be immature and insult you, or they'll be mature and write very long, detailed explanations of why they don't like it.

    On the other hand, if someone decides they DO like the auto-revive feature, they'll probably won't say anything. If they do, they'll probably just say "I like the auto-revive feature". Rarely will someone take the time to explain why they DO like something.

    As a result, discussions about new features always seem to be very negative. A sea of quiet complements is easily drowned out by a few people screaming for your head on a pike.

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  28. Oh, Jeff.

    You manage to sound really, really affected and twitlike without using whom just fine.

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  29. Why release a demo if it isn't representative of the whole? I hate this argument.

    A demo DEMONSTRATES what one can expect when purchasing the full product. It is absolutely reasonable to expect that a demonstration of the product will show me the full range of what to expect. If a demo is boring and dull I can expect the entirety of the program to be boring and dull.

    If it turns out that's not the case then whoever designed the demo did a poor job. Don't turn your anger on the people complaining about the demo's lack of appeal.

    I disagree, Vogel. Demos are not always boring. More than a few times I have been compelled to purchase a game I was not otherwise interested in thanks to a quality demonstration. In fact, that was the case for me with some of your earlier titles.

    Not so with Avadon. It is a departure from the norm. A demo is even more crucial now than before. This demo, unfortunately, did not give me any reason to open my wallet.

    I have tried to be as civil as possible and I hope that anyone who cares to respond will do so with equal class. I am as entitled to my opinion as you are. Thank you.

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  30. And I see that the Codex pile-on has come to the blog. Way to make Jeff's point guys.

    This whole "anti-casual" movement in the hard-core RPG community is self-destructive. Does everyone forget the problems that Jeff had in Avernum 6 because he listened too much to this community and made the game too hard?

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  31. By the way, Jeff... If you talk to the major game companies these days, they are becoming very anti-demo. They are starting to believe that demos are purely harmful, and should be avoided at all costs. I like to argue against them, but player reactions like these make it difficult.

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  32. Jeffs games are really great.
    He's an inspiring person who takes his games to heart. My most favourite of his series is Geneforge.
    Jeff, you done an excellent job with your games. I have no doubt your work will be greatly regonised one day.
    Even Runescape can't compete with the stories he jots down. Compare them to your character automatically killing the evil guy, then Jeffs games let you help or kill the evil guy.

    What I'm trying to say is it's a great start for Avadon. So don't worry. Kick back, and relax with satisfaction that Avadon is a success.

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  33. @Walker: there are valid arguments, and examples, both in these comments and on the Codex. Why single out the retarded ones while not seeing the others? Oh, OK, it's easier, of course.

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  34. Wow, the anti-gay bigotry and sexism at the link you posted (http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58114) is disgusting. Not a place I would hang out. I keep hoping that the mean-spirited jerks (almost always male, it seems) that hang out at a lot of gaming forums will become decent, compassionate people somehow, but I guess it's never going to happen. And they wonder why most women avoid them and their forums...

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  35. Hello and welcome to RPG Codex people. Please feel free to express your limitless rage over my disagreement with you on minor points of RPG design.

    Before you post, I do humbly ask that you actually read my post. I actually meant it as advice for fledgling developers and, if you read it in that spirit, I think you will find what I wrote to be very mild.

    Finally, I have deleted one post due to gross racial slurs. Now that you hate me, go ahead and express it. But be civil. You are in my house now.

    - Jeff Vogel

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  36. @Jude, you should check out the Penny Arcade forums. They're an amazing community of people, especially compared to many others out there on the internet.

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  37. The way RPG Codex Members have responded to this post really only proves the point Jeff was only hinting at - you all seem massively immature and have entitlement issues measured in astronomical units.

    You'll excuse me if I don't ever visit your site, if these comments are a representative sample.

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  38. What? John's and my posts show we are "immature and have entitlement issues"? How on Earth?


    The thing is, I honestly cannot believe a developer who has given us lots of very good demos in the past says "demos are always boring" with a straight face. His own work is a counterexample to his claims!

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  39. I love the fact that your games always have so much depth and uniqueness to them while still being playable and fun. Sadly, so many games lack that these days. Thank you for keeping things interesting.
    I've recently introduced my son to Avadon too, and it's kept him off Minecraft for a while now. You must be doing something right!

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  40. More power to your elbow, Jeff; don't pay too much attention to the naysayers. I've enjoyed your games since playing the original Exile on a Quadra 610 back in 1996.

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  41. The only complaint I have about the Demo is it should have included more instructions on how to actually play the game. Avadon was a new system, and I had difficulty figuring out how everything worked. That confusion didn't last long, but I still feel the demo would benefit from a more explicit tutorial.

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  42. 99% of the comments I read on RPGCodex about Spiderweb games (EXCEPT for Avadon) are positive. Man, they love hating games. They hate Spiderweb games so much that they have influenced me to buy Avernum 6 and/or Geneforge 5 in the near future.

    The most ironic thing about complaining about the nitpicking is how selective the citations are in this article. In other words, more nitpicking. Why not at least quote a balanced variety of retarded AND constructive criticisms? Or would that be too counterproductive to such a biased retort? If I were to simply copy & paste the WELL-WRITTEN criticism into comments, would they be deleted?

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  43. How's about Mr. Brother None's (Administrator of NMA) comments?

    "
    For almost all of the game: nope. In fact, the character system is structured to discourage you from using skills, since they eat up endurance, which doesn't regenerate, while health does. I'll dive into that in my review. It's the biggest screw-up of several screw-ups really.

    But one thing you won't get from the demo: it does have Vogel's traditional "difficulty spike" at the end. One fight out there gave me a good oldfashioned ragegasm."

    "

    I've been testing it out but it doesn't seem so. Many dialog options don't really matter. A lot of it is hand-waved away as "you're a Hand, you can do as you like", or blatantly ignored.

    There's a lot of choices that impact the end narration to a greater or lesser extent, but otherwise...

    The one exception I'm fairly certain on but didn't experiment with enough is the loyalty missions. I think your companions will likely flee or turn on you if you make choices they disagree with near the end, but I had fulfilled all their loyalty missions so they trusted my judgement.

    Well, throughout the game one side tries to tempt you away from loyalty to Avadon. My character constantly rebuked them and even kicked the shit out of the dude when he kept bothering me. Yet there it was, right at the end, the option to side with him anyway. It seems to be, again, Biowarean, the classic "you can change your mind at the last minute" kind of choice. But (endgame spoilers)... "

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  44. Do I have to sift through a lot of facetious 4chan-ism to find the constructive criticism in the Codex? Yup.

    On the other hand, I can go to a "friendlier" forum where I have to sift through fanboys circlejerking the developer. Telling me the game is good without telling me WHY. In other words, all forums are the same - you're going to have to sift through the majority of less intelligent posts to read the good ones.

    The thing is, I've found that negativity more often breeds logical, honest posts. I've spent more than enough time on other "friendlier" forums where either criticism is heavily moderated or the atmosphere is SO politically correct that the writer tones down or positively spins criticism instead of speaking the full and honest truth.

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  45. @Dan: Thank you for reposting the review above from the forums, since it does such a good job of clarifying why I feel the way I do. Consider this ...

    "For almost all of the game: nope. In fact, the character system is structured to discourage you from using skills, since they eat up endurance, which doesn't regenerate, while health does. I'll dive into that in my review. It's the biggest screw-up of several screw-ups really."

    This is just wrong.

    It is clear that this feedback only comes from a few seconds of play, followed by a guess. If you actually played the game, you would know that, if this system can be criticized for anything, it's for abilities taking too little endurance. You almost never run out.

    Some people think this is a flaw. I don't. It means that the game creates the impression of fatigue without ever inconveniencing the player with lots of trips back to town.

    In other words, that "flaw," described as "the biggest screw-up of several screw-ups really" is not there. This is not constructive criticism. It is not even based in anything resembling reality.

    When I read the RPG Codex thread on Avadon, it was at this exact post that I tuned out. I thought, "This is as close to a constructive comment as I'm going to get here, and I'm just wrong. I am wasting my time here."

    - Jeff Vogel

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  46. @Dan: Oh, one other thing.

    "99% of the comments I read on RPGCodex about Spiderweb games (EXCEPT for Avadon) are positive."

    Nonsense.

    I have actually been following RPG Codex threads about me for a while. It's due diligence, really, though I'm about to stop. That RPG Codex has always been full of love for me is demonstrably untrue. Just look at old threads about my games and blog articles. You will find long stretches of nothing but pure, undiluted bile.

    I honestly was surprised by your comment. I completely did not expect that someone would actually pretend that RPG Codex is full of love for me! I mean, dude! Google exists! Anyone who cared could look up and see a long litany of hate, going well back.

    And, since I like to prove things I say, here is an example, because I dared to write something about a game that wasn't entirely critical ...

    http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58240

    "The guy who wrote this is worthy of clinical retardation papers. "

    - Jeff Vogel

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  47. Jeff, again, you're nitpicking. I give you 2 quotes and you selectively reply to the one that is "wrong." What about the other one? If it's also similarly wrong, please say so instead of just ignoring it.

    More nitpicking when you mention the thread about your opinions on DA2. I said people like your games. Not your opinion on other games.

    When I mean 99% (obviously exaggeration, I think we both know) I mean actual legitimate good posts. Again, foruming, hell in real life, you have to sift through crap. Please point out any negative posts in these google searches:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Arpgcodex.net+intitle%3Ageneforge&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=site%3Arpgcodex.net+intitle%3Aavernum&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

    As a general point, one example does not at all indicate a generalization.

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  48. As a come-and-go reader of RPG Codex, I have to agree that most of what I've read about Geneforge and Avernum there throughout the years is positive. In fact, I think the Codex is where I first caught interest in Spiderweb.

    Concerning Avadon, I haven't tried it yet so I can't comment, but it's definitely on my list of games to look into.

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  49. I can't understand why anyone would bother wading through the sewage on the vast majority of gaming forums. It's like Reddit; whenever I go, I leave feeling dumber for the experience. Life's way too short.

    Find some good reviewers. Learn how their opinions align with yours. Actually enjoy reading the reviews.

    I like Rock Paper Shotgun, which also has the best community of any gaming site, thought that isn't saying much. Their writers refuse to give out scores and tend to overdo the forced humour. I like IncGamers, which is a more traditional magazine-like site with some great writers, and is more casually funny.

    Hell, I even like places such as GameDev.net where the conversation can drift to current games, but it's not the focus. But most of the internet is a cesspool. Listen to the people you trust/respect; the rest aren't worth your time.

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  50. Well, so according to Jeff the reviewer for Game Banshee posts his opinion on the game after playing the game for a few seconds and taking a guess. Amazing.

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  51. And yes, the Codex has always been generally positive about Spiderweb games (as Dan's links show), so I'm surprised why Jeff decided to troll us suddenly. Well, it's his choice.

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  52. Did you delete my post ?!?!? It didn't contain any slurs, ethnic or otherwise.

    Anyways, as I wrote in it, most Codexers thinks what you write on your blog is idiotic, but the games you make are good. That is reflected in the forum thread you mention.

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  53. TE, the problem with game reviewers is that the reviews are never dissected. On the other hand, when someone posts an opinion on a forum, I am allowed to question him about specific points, clarify specific examples, etc.

    And the other thing is the lack of good reviewers. Even the ones you mentioned, you didn't even mention in a particularly great light. I do read "professional" reviews a lot, but to be honest I almost never consider the actual score but only care about specific examples they give and then make my own inferences.

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  54. I think one needs to understand the nature of the Codex before allowing themselves to make an emotionally influenced reaction to incidents of slur or criticism. At its core, the Codex is a collective of disillusioned RPG gamers who feel that (in general) the sort of RPG they wish to play is becoming rarer and rarer. The last few years of 'decline' have compounded fundamental (and well-founded) criticisms and expressions of distaste to the extent that there is no real incentive to put in extensive effort to explain (yet again) what you have explained hundreds of times in the past. Rather, the sense of community is perpetuated by a self-constructed survival mechanism - namely a set of memes (which include, among other things, callously disregarding new rpgs as filth, typing purposefully flawed or exaggerated disagreements in caps, the incredibly mundane 'drog' joke played on anyone new who tries to make a post etc.). That is not to say that the exaggerations made in many posts are not caricatures of genuine grievances, nor is it to say that the Codex does not often provide quite detailed and well balanced arguments criticising certain games. When it comes to Spiderweb's games, while a large proportion of Codexers historically support and commend the work, that does not stop the same individuals playing on the memes that prolong the culture, nor does their 'nitpicking' make a point less valid - it only reflects the fact that in the end we all like things to be perfect (if we can). Swathes of blank praise makes uninteresting reading (and writing), unless you are carefully attempting to identify what the winning formula was that gave you reason to smile. Not everyone who enjoys Spiderweb's games is going to show their praise, but just because they are miserly on that account it doesn't make relative dissatisfaction (and equally 'nitpicking') any less relevant, although one should clearly attach a smaller weight to a 'nitpick' than a serious gameplay-ruining aspect. Given that the latter does not exist, why wouldn't one wish to focus on nitpicks, being the only source of criticism, as an important way of finding ways to improve? That only nitpicks exist is a testament to the quality of a game, not the opposite. Having said that, comparing good games in order of -relative- quality is nothing new, and that Avadon should be compared (perhaps unfavourably) to Geneforge or Avernum should not be ignored. Face value is misleading in an internet of memes and 'raging', but it typically betrays an underlying truth, once you understand the process by which it is generated, and condition for environmental factors.

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  55. Wow, people suck. Keep making awesome games, you obviously know what you're doing.

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  56. Nonsense.

    I have actually been following RPG Codex threads about me for a while. It's due diligence, really, though I'm about to stop. That RPG Codex has always been full of love for me is demonstrably untrue. Just look at old threads about my games and blog articles. You will find long stretches of nothing but pure, undiluted bile.

    I honestly was surprised by your comment. I completely did not expect that someone would actually pretend that RPG Codex is full of love for me! I mean, dude! Google exists! Anyone who cared could look up and see a long litany of hate, going well back.

    And, since I like to prove things I say, here is an example, because I dared to write something about a game that wasn't entirely critical ...


    Have you ever read any of the Codex's reviews of your games: Geneforge, Avernum 3, Geneforge 2?

    Some bile.

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  57. Gee look, Codex followed you over here...

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  58. I have a real problem with the concept that "all of Jeff's past games have been great, but this demo sucked, so I'll pass." Huh? Track record is meaningful.

    Avadon is now my second favorite Spiderweb game. The main reason is replay value. I always say that I'll play a game again, but 95% of the time I simply don't. Avadon's use of classes has me on a third play-through, as of this post.

    As for Jeff vs. Codexland? Jeff 1, Codex 0. Consider this post above from Dan:

    'Jeff, again, you're nitpicking. I give you 2 quotes and you selectively reply to the one that is "wrong."'

    I'm pretty sure that Dan has no idea what nitpicking means. One out of two is 50% wrong, and Dan picked the two. Being egregiously wrong in comment one leads me to ignore comment two. Perhaps Jeff feels the same?

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  59. You could take this as a measure of success, Jeff. If there's anything that's unwavering, it's that popular new game releases are invariably greeted with much wailing and gnashing of teeth and wild ad hominem attacks against the authors. In 5 years everyone will be saying 'no no we loved it, why aren't games like this anymore? everything is dumbed-down nowadays.'

    I'm just surprised no one has tried to pin your design choices on marketing and publishers. Everyone wants a conspiracy to blame. It's utterly insane anyone would want to make their game more accessible, it must be the damn marketers!

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  60. "I'm pretty sure that Dan has no idea what nitpicking means. One out of two is 50% wrong, and Dan picked the two. Being egregiously wrong in comment one leads me to ignore comment two. Perhaps Jeff feels the same?"

    So if in the court of law, one piece of evidence is wrong, then the second one is thrown out too?

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  61. The Codex Critical Consensus prior to Avadon was that we find your blog posts laughable but we generally enjoy your games.

    If you compare the Geneforge 4 or Avernum 6 release threads to the Avadon release thread, you'll see a very different response to Avadon.

    Geneforge 4 release thread was full of overwhelming praise
    http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17234

    Avernum 6 release thread was more mixed but overall favorable, with some high praise from the same Codex all stars who showed up with negative posts in the Avadon thread.
    http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41430
    _________________________________
    Vault Dweller on Avernum 6:
    "Avernum 6 is a superbly designed game, one of Jeff's best. He really got the sandbox gameplay down to a science and it shows. I'm tempted to write a review because I'm sure that many people look at the screens and go "Money for THAT? You've gotta be kidding. An autistic 8 year old can draw better doodles".

    To put it simply, the game is ****ing awesome. If you like sandbox games, download the demo, because it's THE best sandbox game ever. It's better than my beloved Daggerfall, it's better than Gothic 2, it's better than Morrowind, it's better than Risen. The graphics are one step above ASCII, but the gameplay (***ing everything, from loot distribution and battles to dungeon and quest design) is top notch. 10/10.
    ____________________________
    (yes, that is one of the Codex's most elite members giving your game a 10/10)
    ______________________________
    Vault Dweller on Avadon:
    "Disappointing.

    It seems like he put in a lot of effort to attract the casual crowd. The "casual" difficulty mode for people who are "new to fantasy RPGs"? As if these people would be interested in a Spiderweb game. Sure, he updated the graphics and it's the nicest looking Jeff's game to-date, but still...

    It seems like he threw away everything he's learned and built over the years and started from scratch: a linear, easy-breezy Bioware adventure with a Diablo-like character system. Yay!"
    _______________________

    The Codex doesn't hate your games. They're just disappointed in this one.

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  62. @Dan: "So if in the court of law, one piece of evidence is wrong, then the second one is thrown out too?"

    My time is limited and valuable, and there are infinite opinions out there. Before I give some random internet person my attention and trust, it must be earned.

    That means that is the first thing you say is, "Down is up!" then I am not going to pay much attention to the second thing. Nor should I.

    There are already many people out there criticizing me in a helpful way. Them, I listen to. But I only have so much time to attend to forums, so I will not attend to ones that are mainly full of bile and incorrect statements. Such is life.

    - Jeff Vogel

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  63. So you're going to listen to him when he writes the GameBanshee review, then?

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  64. "criticizing me in a helpful way. Them, I listen to. "

    Basically blocking out all criticism from the get go. Very smart way of thinking, it will certainly help you to improve the quality of your games in the long run. Why, its undeniable that people just naturally get better if there is no naysayers to point out their mistakes.

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  65. @McKertis: You know absolutely nothing about me. Not how I work. Not how I interact with my fans and my community. Nothing at all.

    But let me ask you a little question. How do you think that I stayed in business for sixteen years in an incredibly difficult and competitive field if I never actively seek out and act upon user feedback?

    I got to stop responding to trolls, but seriously. How can I take a community seriously when this is what I get in return?

    - Jeff Vogel

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  66. @Dan: "So you're going to listen to him when he writes the GameBanshee review, then?"

    If what he writes is accurate, I would be happy to listen. If he claims things about the game engine that are demonstrably untrue, well, I will give that feedback all the attention it deserves.

    The idea that respect is something that needs to be earned is an interesting one. Perhaps I should blog about it.

    - Jeff Vogel

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  67. Codex is actually a great place to have a first game listed, if you can stomach some heat. It comes with precious feedback, encouragement, and even customers.

    They reviewed mine, and the review was quite favorable despite my game's beginner flaws. Getting my butt kicked there made me better.

    Since this is a post about giving advice to wanabees like myself, I have to say letting the codex staff know about your game is overall a good move.

    It's true though that you'll find the occasional hate spewer and therefore have to be prepared to overlook the ones that simply aren't constructuve by nature. They aren't the majority though.

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  68. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  69. Actually I too have noticed that Codexers seem to be largely in favor of Spiderweb games,with the exception of Avadon.

    Geneforge and the first three in the Avadon series I drifted away from Spiderweb products. I was convinced to return after reading quite a few positive remarks about the latter entries in both series.

    Sure, the Codex is clogged with more than its share of vitriol, but I honestly find that, while perhaps quite a bit more militant, their views generally coincide with mine. If the Codex likes it there's a good chance I'll like it.

    Personal opinion again. Main point it, the Codex is definitely very much in love with most Spiderweb titles. There are, of course, those who will complain about anything and everything there, but that's just the nature of the beast.

    I think the criticism leveled at Avadon is largely justified. I found it simplistic and dull. The writing shows promise, as it does with all Spiderweb products, but I feel it's underutilized. As for the challenge, hardcore shouldn't just equate to enemies with more hit points.

    I want a challenge, yes. But I want a challenge that can be overcome through superior tactics. Not lucky rolls or grinding. That, I think, is where you miss the point, Vogel. While I agree that "normal" mode should be an easy, thoughtless stroll through dungeons filled with easily dispatched foes, I feel that the harder difficulties should encourage tactical thought.

    Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in Avadon.

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  70. @John: You know, I am curious about something. I think that Avadon has the most varied tactical combat of any game I've written. Avadon is just about the only one of my games I've ever spent time playing just for fun.

    But the more complex battles happen later in the game. It HAS to be that way.

    You don't give enough information in your post for me to in any way process your feedback, so I will ask for more information. What difficulty did you play on, and how far into the game did you play?

    - Jeff Vogel

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  71. Well I guess the thing is that in (most, if not all) message boards, posters are not REALLY trying to provide criticism but instead just venting to each other. It's just a php chatroom, really.

    And I guess what I'm trying to point out is similar to what your original point was. Don't really take forums seriously unless you skim across a legitimate post, because most of the chatter is just chatter/small-talk/etc. The ironic thing is that you took it a little too seriously in this blog post.

    Still, my separate point still stands, that the Codex is no hater of Spiderweb games.

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  72. I actually did buy Avadon. I got it for the Mac when it first came out. It's been a while since I played, but I can tell you my last saved game was from the Dhorla Woods. I believe that's several hours into the game. I also played on the hardest difficulty. Sure, some enemies gave me pause, but defeating them was a matter of trying until the dice gods favored me or I'd gained a few more levels.

    Perhaps you're right. Perhaps the story picks up and combat becomes complex and rewarding later on. I'll never know because I'm too bored to continue.

    I don't like this notion that the game can't start out interesting and complex. I think a good game is a lot like a good book. You're a writer, Jeff. You know the golden rule. A good book grabs its reader by the throat with the first sentence and never lets go. Why should video games be any different?

    Did you play The Witcher? Not a perfect or deeply tactical game by any means. However, I fondly recall a confrontation early on in the game. I was tasked with slaying a demonic hellhound. At first I charged in swinging my sword like mad and quaffing health potions by the gallon. A tried and true tactic of any RPG. I died. I died many, many times.

    At this point I was flustered. I thought for sure I'd need to grind several levels before I could hope to defeat the hound. But instead I combed the countryside, interrogating peasants until I learned of a poison the hound was susceptible to. I coated my blade with this foul, neon green substance and I also gathered ingredients for a number of other potions--all of which were more interesting than humdrum armor class or damage output buffs. When next I faced the creature I defeated it thanks to solid preparation.

    I overcame the challenge through wits and good use of my resources. Not grinding. Not luck. The higher difficulty didn't equate to more enemies with exponentially higher hit points. The higher difficulty meant that I had to put my thinking cap on.

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  73. "How do you think that I stayed in business for sixteen years in an incredibly difficult and competitive field if I never actively seek out and act upon user feedback?"

    What competitive field ? You filled a very specific niche, and you didnt have ANY competition to speak of, until Basilisk arrived.
    And i'm sorry to say, that even though i played through Geneforge 1 to 3, it is very clear to me, that you either did not actually act upon user feedback, or you never got any valid criticism to begin with. Just the general GUI was screaming to be fixed from the very beginning, it was worse than Avernum GUI by far, and yet you did nothing.

    So yeah, keep calling everyone you dont agree with trolls, if it makes you feel better, dick.

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  74. @John: So when you say "Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in Avadon."

    what you mean is

    "Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in the first 15% or so of Avadon."

    I'm sorry you didn't like the game and the first little fraction of it bored you. But this, THIS is why I have been neglected feedback from your corner of the internet. By not mentioning what portion of the game you played, your post was so misleading as to be borderline libelous.

    If they don't like the demo, they don't like it, but they shouldn't pretend they comprehend the whole game.

    You see, I've gotten and read tons of feedback about Avadon. Most gamers I've heard from find the Shadow Beasts (about where you quit the game) fights to be challenging and an appropriate ramping up of complexity.

    That is part of designing a good game, you know. Designing for everyone, not just the super-hardcorez. The later fights in Avadon ARE more complicated and require careful tactics, but the place where you quit is the wrong place for those fights. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    I think the main beef RPG Codex people have is that I didn't bring out those crazy, complex fights at the beginning. This would be pleasing a tiny handful and excluding everyone else. Not good design, in my book.

    I admit that Avadon simply might require more patience from hardcore gamers than a lot of them will be willing to give. I just might not write games you/they will like anymore. More's the pity.

    (I am no longer visiting RPG Codex forums, but if you posted the above there, I really would appreciate it. I know there's a massive ragethread there about me, and I think that will, if not mollify them, make them understand why Avadon might not entirely be The Great Betrayal Of All Good Principles.)

    @McKertis: You really don't think small indies face competition from big companies, even if we aren't making games in exactly the same genre? Good lord! Your post is simultaneously obnoxious and misinformed.

    - Jeff Vogel

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  75. I'm not a professional critic. It's not my job to slog through a game to its completion so that I can write an accurate review.

    As a consumer I don't have any tolerance for "slogging". With Avadon I expect to be entertained from the start. I shouldn't have to play 15% of the game before it starts to get fun. I didn't have to play through 15% of Avernum 6 or Geneforge 5 before I started to enjoy them.

    It's more than the combat, though. The story just hasn't drawn me in. It's been a while, but I don't recall having many opportunities to make decisions that actually seemed to matter in the game. Beyond selecting snarky or nice dialog options it's been an extremely linear experience.

    I believe it was Avernum 6 that had me bounding through a dungeon in pursuit of a wily goblin that would spring traps and deliver amusing threats at every corner. That was fun, and it was fun right from the start. It grabbed me and it demanded that I continue playing.

    That hasn't happened yet in Avadon and if it does later, well, like the book that doesn't deliver in the first chapter, I've shelved it.

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  76. P.S. I went ahead and added your post to the massive ragethread for what it's worth.

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  77. PPS I also feel that after you've simmered down you should really take a moment and consider the harm you could be doing by burning the bridge with the Codex. Despite what you may think, you HAVE gotten sales thanks to them. Your fans are your fans. They're not going to be swayed by the homophobic and racist drivel some Codexers spew, and many Codexers HAVE had good things to say about your past products. I've bought at least 3 of your titles due in part to positive feedback from the Codex and I refuse to believe I'm alone.

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  78. @John: Hey, man, you might like my games. You might not like them. But if you want to proclaim to the world how truly terrible they are and you have any interest in being the slightest bit fair and reasonable, you might want to mention you've only played a sliver of the game.

    I've now explained why I made the game the way I did. I am listening to this feedback and bearing it in mind. But I only REALLY listen to people who want to be fair and reasonable.

    Anyway, don't forget we have a money-back guarantee. I don't want you to live in resentment for tricking you into wasting your money on my lousy (in the first fraction) game.

    Anyway, thanks to this exchange, I think I understand where my detractors are coming from a little better. I think you might understand me a little better too. One can hope. I am now bowing out of this thread.

    - Jeff Vogel

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