tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post3246722500777122570..comments2024-03-29T06:29:40.213-07:00Comments on The Bottom Feeder: Avadon Out For Windows, Responding To Critics.Jeff Vogelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-52185222628338664352011-05-05T20:04:00.805-07:002011-05-05T20:04:00.805-07:00@John: Hey, man, you might like my games. You migh...@John: Hey, man, you might like my games. You might not like them. But if you want to proclaim to the world how truly terrible they are and you have any interest in being the slightest bit fair and reasonable, you might want to mention you've only played a sliver of the game.<br /><br />I've now explained why I made the game the way I did. I am listening to this feedback and bearing it in mind. But I only REALLY listen to people who want to be fair and reasonable.<br /><br />Anyway, don't forget we have a money-back guarantee. I don't want you to live in resentment for tricking you into wasting your money on my lousy (in the first fraction) game.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks to this exchange, I think I understand where my detractors are coming from a little better. I think you might understand me a little better too. One can hope. I am now bowing out of this thread.<br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-89209630078771071932011-05-05T20:01:12.291-07:002011-05-05T20:01:12.291-07:00PPS I also feel that after you've simmered d...PPS I also feel that after you've simmered down you should really take a moment and consider the harm you could be doing by burning the bridge with the Codex. Despite what you may think, you HAVE gotten sales thanks to them. Your fans are your fans. They're not going to be swayed by the homophobic and racist drivel some Codexers spew, and many Codexers HAVE had good things to say about your past products. I've bought at least 3 of your titles due in part to positive feedback from the Codex and I refuse to believe I'm alone.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033464887823847481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-41169098024908562812011-05-05T19:49:22.216-07:002011-05-05T19:49:22.216-07:00P.S. I went ahead and added your post to the massi...P.S. I went ahead and added your post to the massive ragethread for what it's worth.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033464887823847481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-63551109627691856792011-05-05T19:45:24.982-07:002011-05-05T19:45:24.982-07:00I'm not a professional critic. It's not m...I'm not a professional critic. It's not my job to slog through a game to its completion so that I can write an accurate review. <br /><br />As a consumer I don't have any tolerance for "slogging". With Avadon I expect to be entertained from the start. I shouldn't have to play 15% of the game before it starts to get fun. I didn't have to play through 15% of Avernum 6 or Geneforge 5 before I started to enjoy them. <br /><br />It's more than the combat, though. The story just hasn't drawn me in. It's been a while, but I don't recall having many opportunities to make decisions that actually seemed to matter in the game. Beyond selecting snarky or nice dialog options it's been an extremely linear experience. <br /><br />I believe it was Avernum 6 that had me bounding through a dungeon in pursuit of a wily goblin that would spring traps and deliver amusing threats at every corner. That was fun, and it was fun right from the start. It grabbed me and it demanded that I continue playing. <br /><br />That hasn't happened yet in Avadon and if it does later, well, like the book that doesn't deliver in the first chapter, I've shelved it.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033464887823847481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-69233894595657294932011-05-05T19:23:07.221-07:002011-05-05T19:23:07.221-07:00@John: So when you say "Positioning. Smart us...@John: So when you say "Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in Avadon."<br /><br />what you mean is<br /><br />"Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in the first 15% or so of Avadon."<br /><br />I'm sorry you didn't like the game and the first little fraction of it bored you. But this, THIS is why I have been neglected feedback from your corner of the internet. By not mentioning what portion of the game you played, your post was so misleading as to be borderline libelous. <br /><br />If they don't like the demo, they don't like it, but they shouldn't pretend they comprehend the whole game.<br /><br />You see, I've gotten and read tons of feedback about Avadon. Most gamers I've heard from find the Shadow Beasts (about where you quit the game) fights to be challenging and an appropriate ramping up of complexity. <br /><br />That is part of designing a good game, you know. Designing for everyone, not just the super-hardcorez. The later fights in Avadon ARE more complicated and require careful tactics, but the place where you quit is the wrong place for those fights. Wrong, wrong, wrong.<br /><br />I think the main beef RPG Codex people have is that I didn't bring out those crazy, complex fights at the beginning. This would be pleasing a tiny handful and excluding everyone else. Not good design, in my book.<br /><br />I admit that Avadon simply might require more patience from hardcore gamers than a lot of them will be willing to give. I just might not write games you/they will like anymore. More's the pity. <br /><br />(I am no longer visiting RPG Codex forums, but if you posted the above there, I really would appreciate it. I know there's a massive ragethread there about me, and I think that will, if not mollify them, make them understand why Avadon might not entirely be The Great Betrayal Of All Good Principles.)<br /><br />@McKertis: You really don't think small indies face competition from big companies, even if we aren't making games in exactly the same genre? Good lord! Your post is simultaneously obnoxious and misinformed. <br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-47593640153113514572011-05-05T18:54:26.701-07:002011-05-05T18:54:26.701-07:00"How do you think that I stayed in business f..."How do you think that I stayed in business for sixteen years in an incredibly difficult and competitive field if I never actively seek out and act upon user feedback?"<br /><br />What competitive field ? You filled a very specific niche, and you didnt have ANY competition to speak of, until Basilisk arrived.<br />And i'm sorry to say, that even though i played through Geneforge 1 to 3, it is very clear to me, that you either did not actually act upon user feedback, or you never got any valid criticism to begin with. Just the general GUI was screaming to be fixed from the very beginning, it was worse than Avernum GUI by far, and yet you did nothing.<br /><br />So yeah, keep calling everyone you dont agree with trolls, if it makes you feel better, dick.McKertishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00481885657839023914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-50659999032020474662011-05-05T18:44:30.476-07:002011-05-05T18:44:30.476-07:00I actually did buy Avadon. I got it for the Mac w...I actually did buy Avadon. I got it for the Mac when it first came out. It's been a while since I played, but I can tell you my last saved game was from the Dhorla Woods. I believe that's several hours into the game. I also played on the hardest difficulty. Sure, some enemies gave me pause, but defeating them was a matter of trying until the dice gods favored me or I'd gained a few more levels.<br /><br />Perhaps you're right. Perhaps the story picks up and combat becomes complex and rewarding later on. I'll never know because I'm too bored to continue. <br /><br />I don't like this notion that the game can't start out interesting and complex. I think a good game is a lot like a good book. You're a writer, Jeff. You know the golden rule. A good book grabs its reader by the throat with the first sentence and never lets go. Why should video games be any different? <br /><br />Did you play The Witcher? Not a perfect or deeply tactical game by any means. However, I fondly recall a confrontation early on in the game. I was tasked with slaying a demonic hellhound. At first I charged in swinging my sword like mad and quaffing health potions by the gallon. A tried and true tactic of any RPG. I died. I died many, many times. <br /><br />At this point I was flustered. I thought for sure I'd need to grind several levels before I could hope to defeat the hound. But instead I combed the countryside, interrogating peasants until I learned of a poison the hound was susceptible to. I coated my blade with this foul, neon green substance and I also gathered ingredients for a number of other potions--all of which were more interesting than humdrum armor class or damage output buffs. When next I faced the creature I defeated it thanks to solid preparation. <br /><br />I overcame the challenge through wits and good use of my resources. Not grinding. Not luck. The higher difficulty didn't equate to more enemies with exponentially higher hit points. The higher difficulty meant that I had to put my thinking cap on.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033464887823847481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-46076612458708895232011-05-05T18:22:42.142-07:002011-05-05T18:22:42.142-07:00Well I guess the thing is that in (most, if not al...Well I guess the thing is that in (most, if not all) message boards, posters are not REALLY trying to provide criticism but instead just venting to each other. It's just a php chatroom, really. <br /><br />And I guess what I'm trying to point out is similar to what your original point was. Don't really take forums seriously unless you skim across a legitimate post, because most of the chatter is just chatter/small-talk/etc. The ironic thing is that you took it a little too seriously in this blog post. <br /><br />Still, my separate point still stands, that the Codex is no hater of Spiderweb games.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09034978313691672297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-85550397179340009852011-05-05T18:11:20.563-07:002011-05-05T18:11:20.563-07:00@John: You know, I am curious about something. I t...@John: You know, I am curious about something. I think that Avadon has the most varied tactical combat of any game I've written. Avadon is just about the only one of my games I've ever spent time playing just for fun.<br /><br />But the more complex battles happen later in the game. It HAS to be that way.<br /><br />You don't give enough information in your post for me to in any way process your feedback, so I will ask for more information. What difficulty did you play on, and how far into the game did you play?<br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-79325166240861839202011-05-05T18:04:24.445-07:002011-05-05T18:04:24.445-07:00Actually I too have noticed that Codexers seem to ...Actually I too have noticed that Codexers seem to be largely in favor of Spiderweb games,with the exception of Avadon.<br /><br />Geneforge and the first three in the Avadon series I drifted away from Spiderweb products. I was convinced to return after reading quite a few positive remarks about the latter entries in both series.<br /><br />Sure, the Codex is clogged with more than its share of vitriol, but I honestly find that, while perhaps quite a bit more militant, their views generally coincide with mine. If the Codex likes it there's a good chance I'll like it.<br /><br />Personal opinion again. Main point it, the Codex is definitely very much in love with most Spiderweb titles. There are, of course, those who will complain about anything and everything there, but that's just the nature of the beast.<br /><br />I think the criticism leveled at Avadon is largely justified. I found it simplistic and dull. The writing shows promise, as it does with all Spiderweb products, but I feel it's underutilized. As for the challenge, hardcore shouldn't just equate to enemies with more hit points.<br /><br />I want a challenge, yes. But I want a challenge that can be overcome through superior tactics. Not lucky rolls or grinding. That, I think, is where you miss the point, Vogel. While I agree that "normal" mode should be an easy, thoughtless stroll through dungeons filled with easily dispatched foes, I feel that the harder difficulties should encourage tactical thought.<br /><br />Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in Avadon.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033464887823847481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-74712155115560866302011-05-05T18:02:14.150-07:002011-05-05T18:02:14.150-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033464887823847481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-81167735368605464122011-05-05T18:01:05.320-07:002011-05-05T18:01:05.320-07:00Codex is actually a great place to have a first ga...Codex is actually a great place to have a first game listed, if you can stomach some heat. It comes with precious feedback, encouragement, and even customers.<br /><br />They reviewed mine, and the review was quite favorable despite my game's beginner flaws. Getting my butt kicked there made me better.<br /><br />Since this is a post about giving advice to wanabees like myself, I have to say letting the codex staff know about your game is overall a good move.<br /><br />It's true though that you'll find the occasional hate spewer and therefore have to be prepared to overlook the ones that simply aren't constructuve by nature. They aren't the majority though.charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445659029834063093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-54061241752928825132011-05-05T17:57:50.779-07:002011-05-05T17:57:50.779-07:00@Dan: "So you're going to listen to him w...@Dan: "So you're going to listen to him when he writes the GameBanshee review, then?"<br /><br />If what he writes is accurate, I would be happy to listen. If he claims things about the game engine that are demonstrably untrue, well, I will give that feedback all the attention it deserves.<br /><br />The idea that respect is something that needs to be earned is an interesting one. Perhaps I should blog about it.<br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-68397906031253068102011-05-05T17:56:26.314-07:002011-05-05T17:56:26.314-07:00@McKertis: You know absolutely nothing about me. N...@McKertis: You know absolutely nothing about me. Not how I work. Not how I interact with my fans and my community. Nothing at all.<br /><br />But let me ask you a little question. How do you think that I stayed in business for sixteen years in an incredibly difficult and competitive field if I never actively seek out and act upon user feedback?<br /><br />I got to stop responding to trolls, but seriously. How can I take a community seriously when this is what I get in return?<br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-61043567307921094412011-05-05T17:46:25.451-07:002011-05-05T17:46:25.451-07:00"criticizing me in a helpful way. Them, I lis..."criticizing me in a helpful way. Them, I listen to. "<br /><br />Basically blocking out all criticism from the get go. Very smart way of thinking, it will certainly help you to improve the quality of your games in the long run. Why, its undeniable that people just naturally get better if there is no naysayers to point out their mistakes.McKertishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00481885657839023914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-4715643359500967982011-05-05T17:36:20.947-07:002011-05-05T17:36:20.947-07:00So you're going to listen to him when he write...So you're going to listen to him when he writes the GameBanshee review, then?Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09034978313691672297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-78890108237504932982011-05-05T17:17:51.899-07:002011-05-05T17:17:51.899-07:00@Dan: "So if in the court of law, one piece o...@Dan: "So if in the court of law, one piece of evidence is wrong, then the second one is thrown out too?"<br /><br />My time is limited and valuable, and there are infinite opinions out there. Before I give some random internet person my attention and trust, it must be earned.<br /><br />That means that is the first thing you say is, "Down is up!" then I am not going to pay much attention to the second thing. Nor should I. <br /><br />There are already many people out there criticizing me in a helpful way. Them, I listen to. But I only have so much time to attend to forums, so I will not attend to ones that are mainly full of bile and incorrect statements. Such is life. <br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-11107599664924106762011-05-05T17:15:40.910-07:002011-05-05T17:15:40.910-07:00The Codex Critical Consensus prior to Avadon was t...The Codex Critical Consensus prior to Avadon was that we find your blog posts laughable but we generally enjoy your games.<br /><br />If you compare the Geneforge 4 or Avernum 6 release threads to the Avadon release thread, you'll see a very different response to Avadon.<br /><br />Geneforge 4 release thread was full of overwhelming praise<br />http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17234<br /><br />Avernum 6 release thread was more mixed but overall favorable, with some high praise from the same Codex all stars who showed up with negative posts in the Avadon thread.<br />http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41430<br />_________________________________<br />Vault Dweller on Avernum 6:<br />"Avernum 6 is a superbly designed game, one of Jeff's best. He really got the sandbox gameplay down to a science and it shows. I'm tempted to write a review because I'm sure that many people look at the screens and go "Money for THAT? You've gotta be kidding. An autistic 8 year old can draw better doodles".<br /><br />To put it simply, the game is ****ing awesome. If you like sandbox games, download the demo, because it's THE best sandbox game ever. It's better than my beloved Daggerfall, it's better than Gothic 2, it's better than Morrowind, it's better than Risen. The graphics are one step above ASCII, but the gameplay (***ing everything, from loot distribution and battles to dungeon and quest design) is top notch. 10/10. <br />____________________________<br />(yes, that is one of the Codex's most elite members giving your game a 10/10)<br />______________________________<br />Vault Dweller on Avadon:<br />"Disappointing.<br /><br />It seems like he put in a lot of effort to attract the casual crowd. The "casual" difficulty mode for people who are "new to fantasy RPGs"? As if these people would be interested in a Spiderweb game. Sure, he updated the graphics and it's the nicest looking Jeff's game to-date, but still...<br /><br />It seems like he threw away everything he's learned and built over the years and started from scratch: a linear, easy-breezy Bioware adventure with a Diablo-like character system. Yay!"<br />_______________________<br /><br />The Codex doesn't hate your games. They're just disappointed in this one.Dr. Nguyen Van Phauchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01415614898481512142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-1088463442071214942011-05-05T16:46:54.830-07:002011-05-05T16:46:54.830-07:00"I'm pretty sure that Dan has no idea wha..."I'm pretty sure that Dan has no idea what nitpicking means. One out of two is 50% wrong, and Dan picked the two. Being egregiously wrong in comment one leads me to ignore comment two. Perhaps Jeff feels the same?"<br /><br />So if in the court of law, one piece of evidence is wrong, then the second one is thrown out too?Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09034978313691672297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-70314964038338177932011-05-05T16:23:36.326-07:002011-05-05T16:23:36.326-07:00You could take this as a measure of success, Jeff....You could take this as a measure of success, Jeff. If there's anything that's unwavering, it's that popular new game releases are invariably greeted with much wailing and gnashing of teeth and wild ad hominem attacks against the authors. In 5 years everyone will be saying 'no no we loved it, why aren't games like this anymore? everything is dumbed-down nowadays.'<br /><br />I'm just surprised no one has tried to pin your design choices on marketing and publishers. Everyone wants a conspiracy to blame. It's utterly insane anyone would want to make their game more accessible, it must be the damn marketers!The Guilty Partyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05113955236856777152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-56367012654758218512011-05-05T16:15:43.266-07:002011-05-05T16:15:43.266-07:00I have a real problem with the concept that "...I have a real problem with the concept that "all of Jeff's past games have been great, but this demo sucked, so I'll pass." Huh? Track record is meaningful.<br /><br />Avadon is now my second favorite Spiderweb game. The main reason is replay value. I always say that I'll play a game again, but 95% of the time I simply don't. Avadon's use of classes has me on a third play-through, as of this post.<br /><br />As for Jeff vs. Codexland? Jeff 1, Codex 0. Consider this post above from Dan:<br /><br />'Jeff, again, you're nitpicking. I give you 2 quotes and you selectively reply to the one that is "wrong."'<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that Dan has no idea what nitpicking means. One out of two is 50% wrong, and Dan picked the two. Being egregiously wrong in comment one leads me to ignore comment two. Perhaps Jeff feels the same?Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17159943667346412746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-35883351540980891972011-05-05T16:15:31.738-07:002011-05-05T16:15:31.738-07:00Gee look, Codex followed you over here...Gee look, Codex followed you over here...The Crickethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13772848633660473512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-63864331710143826372011-05-05T16:05:53.229-07:002011-05-05T16:05:53.229-07:00Nonsense.
I have actually been following RPG Code...<i>Nonsense.<br /><br />I have actually been following RPG Codex threads about me for a while. It's due diligence, really, though I'm about to stop. That RPG Codex has always been full of love for me is demonstrably untrue. Just look at old threads about my games and blog articles. You will find long stretches of nothing but pure, undiluted bile.<br /><br />I honestly was surprised by your comment. I completely did not expect that someone would actually pretend that RPG Codex is full of love for me! I mean, dude! Google exists! Anyone who cared could look up and see a long litany of hate, going well back.<br /><br />And, since I like to prove things I say, here is an example, because I dared to write something about a game that wasn't entirely critical ...</i><br /><br />Have you ever read any of the Codex's reviews of your games: <a href="http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=6" rel="nofollow">Geneforge</a>, <a href="http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=15" rel="nofollow">Avernum 3</a>, <a href="http://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=96" rel="nofollow">Geneforge 2</a>?<br /><br />Some bile.Elzairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14238151381801715569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-45479039821353799082011-05-05T15:55:56.969-07:002011-05-05T15:55:56.969-07:00Wow, people suck. Keep making awesome games, you o...Wow, people suck. Keep making awesome games, you obviously know what you're doing.Karellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02485047619166776567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-49573828102132105542011-05-05T15:45:20.586-07:002011-05-05T15:45:20.586-07:00I think one needs to understand the nature of the ...I think one needs to understand the nature of the Codex before allowing themselves to make an emotionally influenced reaction to incidents of slur or criticism. At its core, the Codex is a collective of disillusioned RPG gamers who feel that (in general) the sort of RPG they wish to play is becoming rarer and rarer. The last few years of 'decline' have compounded fundamental (and well-founded) criticisms and expressions of distaste to the extent that there is no real incentive to put in extensive effort to explain (yet again) what you have explained hundreds of times in the past. Rather, the sense of community is perpetuated by a self-constructed survival mechanism - namely a set of memes (which include, among other things, callously disregarding new rpgs as filth, typing purposefully flawed or exaggerated disagreements in caps, the incredibly mundane 'drog' joke played on anyone new who tries to make a post etc.). That is not to say that the exaggerations made in many posts are not caricatures of genuine grievances, nor is it to say that the Codex does not often provide quite detailed and well balanced arguments criticising certain games. When it comes to Spiderweb's games, while a large proportion of Codexers historically support and commend the work, that does not stop the same individuals playing on the memes that prolong the culture, nor does their 'nitpicking' make a point less valid - it only reflects the fact that in the end we all like things to be perfect (if we can). Swathes of blank praise makes uninteresting reading (and writing), unless you are carefully attempting to identify what the winning formula was that gave you reason to smile. Not everyone who enjoys Spiderweb's games is going to show their praise, but just because they are miserly on that account it doesn't make relative dissatisfaction (and equally 'nitpicking') any less relevant, although one should clearly attach a smaller weight to a 'nitpick' than a serious gameplay-ruining aspect. Given that the latter does not exist, why wouldn't one wish to focus on nitpicks, being the only source of criticism, as an important way of finding ways to improve? That only nitpicks exist is a testament to the quality of a game, not the opposite. Having said that, comparing good games in order of -relative- quality is nothing new, and that Avadon should be compared (perhaps unfavourably) to Geneforge or Avernum should not be ignored. Face value is misleading in an internet of memes and 'raging', but it typically betrays an underlying truth, once you understand the process by which it is generated, and condition for environmental factors.Fax Arronaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14484062808375935080noreply@blogger.com