Tuesday, November 5, 2013

Marketing, Dumb Luck, and the Popping of the Indie Bubble.

This article is kind of depressing, so here is a puppy hugging a kitten.
Sigh. I hate writing articles like this. Even if I’m right (and I really think I am), nobody thanks the bringer of bad news. If what I predict does come to pass, people will resent me more, not less. But I really think what I have to say should be considered by the jillions of ambitious game devs who are quitting their day jobs to go indie. So here goes.

Interesting game article in the news recently. This guy named Alexander Bruce wrote a puzzle game called Antichamber. It did very well. He just did an interview (written by Brendan Sinclair) about how it’s very important to do marketing and develop a good relationship with the press and your players.

The article contains a lot of questionable statements (by the writer, not Bruce) like …
"Just a few years ago, developers didn't need to worry so much about their relationship with the end users."
Does this match the experience of anyone trying to keep a small software company alive in the last few decades? The ability to keep a good relationship with end users was our best tool for staying alive. But I digress.

(Edit: Just to be clear, a lot of stuff Bruce says is very sharp and worth heeding, especially about how dealing with limited resources forces you to be clever.)

Despite the weird stuff, Bruce gets a bit of good advice in too. To a point.

Now, first, it's evidence how amazingly sweet things have been for indie devs for the last few years that anyone would even think "You should do marketing." is news. When I started out writing shareware in 1994, the first piece of advice anyone ever gave anyone about anything was, "Yeah. Marketing. Do that."

Not the right way to market your game.
But, Um, Duh, Right?

Isn't it kind of an obvious bit of advice? When you finish your game, you'll tell people, won't you? Is anyone trying to succeed at business by finishing their game, putting it in a lead box, and burying it in the backyard?

But here is where the article sort of falls apart. There are many paths to success in the indie biz, and each needs its own marketing plan. Each developer has their own set of strengths and weaknesses, both mental and in cash and time resources.

Just because one path (Hint: Steam) has been popular of late doesn't mean it's the right one for that particular game (since the genre you are working in will require its own strategy, depending on how niche you are), or that it will be a plausible path forever. If you are trying to make it writing high-cost, boutique games in a serious niche field like, say, turn-based wargaming, following the strategy Alexander Bruce used for his puzzle game will lead to ruin.

You see, the conventional wisdom now is that, to make it in indie games, you need to blow it all on one big, flashy title. Spend all your time at GDC giving the gaming press hot oil massages. Then release it on Steam, get fifty articles written about you, and make meelions of dollars. Buy a Tesla, give interviews, have your next game be a 2-D platformer, and die happy.

But buried in the article is the real news. The little tidbit that really says where things are going ...

"Even being featured in a coveted place like the Steam Daily Deals doesn't mean as much as it used to."

Yes. This is true. A Steam Daily Deal used to mean doing a happy dance and putting on your Super Money Pants. What? That's fading? Uh oh. And this is the beginning of the real story.

By The Way …

I’m not happy about any of this. A few years ago, there was a huge demand for indie content, and I had a bunch of quality games ready to go. I profited from this temporary state of affairs far more than I deserved. I am not gloating about sweet times coming to an end. My modest games will be the first on the chopping block.

I can't get rich selling THIS anymore? NO FAIR!
When Can We Start Using the Term "Indie Bubble"?

On October 29, Steam accepted 100 titles for publishing from their Greenlight system. A HUNDRED. IN ONE DAY. JUST ON STEAM.

This is the problem with so many indie devs cozying up to the Escapist and Kotaku and the PA Report. There is a flood of new titles, so many that Humble Bundle sells them in Costco-sized bundles of a dozen for a dollar. A lot of good titles won't ever get that press. They just can't. There's not room.

And that's just for the flashy titles (the "AAA Indies"). My turn-based, low-budget, word-heavy RPGs are a lot of fun and have a real audience, but nobody at Kotaku gives a crap about them, nor should they. Why would a Let's Play channel on YouTube want to do one of my games? It'd be like putting up a movie of someone reading a book. Alexander Bruce's marketing path is useless to me, but my business is still valid. Has been for 20 years.

Also, the gaming community doesn't care about indies as much as we like to think they do. (Minecraft is an ultra-mega-uber hit, right? Well, Grand Theft Auto V made more than it in like 18 seconds.) The gaming press knows that gamers only want to hear about so many indies. Soon, they'll start picking who lives and who dies.

The point? Any article about marketing indies that doesn't mention the word "luck" is lying to you.

Even if she was alive, she still wouldn't want to play your 2-D platformer.
By the Way, Luck Exists

I know all you young developers are brash libertarians who believe in a just, deterministic universe. So feel free to get angry at me for this part: Unless times are really good, you need luck for your business to succeed. You need the rare sort of good times where there's a ton of demand and very little product. A time like the period that is now ending.

Yes, Luck: Getting a good break. Meeting the right editor who will champion you or making the right publisher connection. My company, Spiderweb Software, has been lucky. Many times. I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Worthy titles sometimes fall by the wayside now. There is no inherent universal justice that decides that the "best" games succeed, whatever you mean by "best". Some gamers will love you, and some won’t. You have to hang on until one of those gamers becomes an editor somewhere. The more niche your product is, the longer you will have to wait.

Disagree? Think that everyone who fails only fails because they were lazy or stupid or just suck? Fine with me. It's your call if you need to believe in a universe based on justice and fairness. I hope someday to join you there.

This article is kind of depressing, so here is a puppy.
Can There Only Ever Be One Path?

Here's how it works now. Everyone makes a team, puts something together with flash, pushes the heck out of it at GDC/PAX/whatever, and waits for Steam to wave its magic fairy dust wand and make them rich.

Which is great. If it works. But there's a problem. There's still a lot of fairy dust in that wand, but it's getting spread awful thin.

Is there another route to success in this business?

You could try what I did to make a long career. You could pick a neglected genre, write the best games you can for it on a limited budget in your spare time, release one game after another, and push your work where you can to build a loyal audience with word-of-mouth and good customer support. Then, maybe, years later, thanks to your persistence and hard work, you might go full time. A loyal audience can keep you in business through good times and lean.

All you need to make a game is a $299 computer, a chair, time, and some software which we'll pretend for the moment you didn't get on BitTorrent. It will probably look cruddy, but a lot of people don't care (and many people get off on the rough DIY thing). You won't be on Steam, but there are plenty of ways to sell it like on your own site. It'll be tough, but starting a new business is never easy.

When I did it (shut up, grandpa), there wasn't even the web. Now there are forums and communities galore. There are a million places to start assembling that customer base, and you don't even need to say the word Steam.

Is this possible? It should be. It happens. I'm not the only small dev who has made a living this way. But, sadly, there aren't many. I don't know how feasible the slow and steady building of a clientele is in indie gaming. I am, however, confident that we're going to need to start finding out.

Dear God, please let Polygon notice meeeeeee!
But What About the Future?

I think we're in for an interesting few years in the computer game industry. I have my own opinion about the future of small game development, and it's this:
If your game can't succeed based on word-of-mouth marketing, unless you get real lucky, you need to adjust your budget, your quality, or both.
I know, I know. "Jeff Vogel is just being a crazy old coot again." Sure. Nobody wants to hear a whole business model being called into question.

But I've lived through rich times and lean times, several of each. Small-scale software development is a rough business, and you need to operate lean and mean to live in the long term.

Some indie devs will use their bubble money to get big and survive. Anyone who can't grow huge and doesn't have the patience and persistence to go the small company path will have to seek opportunities elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs. I've actively enjoyed seeing people who do what I do getting rich.

However, Microeconomics 101 is still true. When people start making a ton of money, they will attract competitors until nobody makes easy money anymore. It’s an iron law of capitalism.

Alexander Bruce deserves his success, but it is important to remember that the path he described in his interview is only sometimes the best way, even if the press often treats it as the One True Route. Not everyone can market their way to success.

(Edit - The final sentence was perhaps a bit too hostile, so I changed it.)

---

My incoherent mumblings are now available in condensed form on Twitter.

282 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Great article! As a recently roughing-it-on-my-own indie game dev, this hits on exactly what I'm worried about. However, your comments about finding a niche and some customers liking the "rough DIY thing" gives me hope. Love your games and your blog posts; hope to see more of both!

    ReplyDelete
  3. On luck: reminds me of an interview with Terry Pratchett, where he was asked if he was jealous of the success of J.K. Rowling. His view was, they were both decent authors who got lucky:

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/11/07/1099781246915.html

    'Fame and fortune, he says, are ultimately "a kind of crap shoot" and certainly should not be the cause of jealousy.

    "So if you think that you've been lucky enough to win at the roulette wheel you certainly aren't jealous of someone who's been lucky to win on the baccarat tables next door. There are better writers than me and J.K. Rowling who aren't particularly financially successful."'

    ReplyDelete
  4. Excellent, excellent piece. Everyone making a game that's wishing for that magic Greenlight NEEDS to read this.

    I tend to support smaller (and crazier) indie devs who work on and sell stuff on their own or make free games they SHOULD be paid for (I have no idea how someone works for YEARS on a game and refuses to charge for it nor has a "donate" button on their page!), but I also have a way too large digital library from too many bundle sites thanks to them being too irresistible to pass up.

    (yeah, a dozen games for two bucks or four for a dollar or 30 for $10 is nuts)...

    I'd feel "guilty" about this, but I'd also be nuts with my lack of money to bypass some deals, "bad" games in a big lot or not.

    ReplyDelete
  5. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I knew that already, and I agree completely. I got some totally funny reaction when my game got Greenlit.
    Luckily I'm an old seasoned indie and I've always done it without Steam, and I don't have big expectations about it (but maybe I'll get lucky!)

    ReplyDelete
  7. This summer I did a talk with Cliff Harris at Develop about the long tail of indie games and Cliff mentioned the indie bubble. We're definitely in it, and that's why direct sales are still the holy grail.

    ReplyDelete
  8. As you mention you've lived through rich times and lean times - I apologize for being nosy, but would you mind expounding in a bit more detail on the various rich times and lean times that have gone by? Not even necessarily for you personally, but in a more general sense.

    I ask partly for the value of a historical perspective, but also because I get the feeling that although fluctuations always existed, the *scale* has gotten bigger - and your most recent 'rich time', for example, has been more so than any previous one.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Why the need to remove yourself from the other "hip" indies? You've done the bundles, there are many let's plays of your games on Youtube. At least check before you go all "oh my, why would anyone care about these creaky old RPGs of mine?"...

    ReplyDelete
  10. Luck no doubt plays a role, but I think when things are not going well or haven't gone well for some time to think luck plays a bigger role than it does.

    As an indie when thinking about what game project to spend your hours/days/months/years on you have to take into account your own circumstances, you have to take into account the current market, the competition, your target audience etc etc, if you miscalculate on any of those factors it can lead to a year of wasted time. Could that then be called bad luck? I don't think so, I think it can be more accurately called good or bad judgement.

    Luck also doesn't play much of a role in the quality of the end product, which increasingly has to be of a higher level. It's possible to create average games until the end of time, and if that's all the dev can create then fine, but it won't make any money.

    Success as an indie can depend upon many factors, right place right time, knowing the right people, hard work, a great idea and luck.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Nice article, but there is no need for the self depreciative statements. Your way has been working for you for quite some time, and that is more than a lot of devs can say.

    ReplyDelete
  12. And hopefully some will use their bubble money to help create a better ecosystem for all. The danger is "I made it, so there's no problem.".

    ReplyDelete
  13. I tip my hat to you for telling it like it is. This is the side of indie development that rarely gets acknowledged by the press - not that they don't know of it, but it's pretty depressing to focus on it.

    ReplyDelete
  14. well, some opportunities close and other open. Linux gaming is growing by the minute and Steam Machines will give it a huge push. And look how many games even spiderweb software can push there. Also I do not think that press coverage is that bad - look at rock paper shotgun for example. And I really hope that turn based strategy makers will not believe you and will try to sell on steam :)

    ReplyDelete
  15. "All you need to make a game is…some software which we'll pretend for the moment you didn't get on BitTorrent."

    Disappointing to read this, not because of the piracy, but because it ignores and invalidates the free and open source alternatives.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I thought of it too, open source alternatives can help devs beginning to in the video game industry.

      Delete
  16. Having only done this for 18 years, Jeff's message is spot on. The fat times (and they have been historically quite fat) are closing down. Not on all platforms. And not immediately. And the lucky few will still prosper.

    Neither luck nor basing your success on the whims of middlemen has ever been a great long term business strategy for game developers.

    Jeff's strategy is solid. I take a different tact and try to make games that people play for a very long time and hopefully have a bunch of games that transfer easily to new and old platforms. That spreads out the risk a bit...multiple pulls of the slot machine lever over many years with the same high quality game.

    The community aspect is key as well since then you have a base of people coming to you and seeing what's new. It may seem like a merest trickle compared to the wave of folks coming from a big distributor like Steam. Yet when all your luck runs out and all the distributors decide you aren't A enough for their AAAA curation initiative...that trickle will keep you fed.

    Smart indie dev doesn't ask 'what is the best case scenario' and then shoots for that. It is far better to ask 'what is the worst case scenario and how do I thrive even when that happens?'

    ReplyDelete
  17. What do you think about games that neither compete with a hot genre nor serve a niche genre? I certainly agree with pushing the envelope, but I've seen several games come out recently that were so... strange... that I had even less desire to try them out. (The most common game type I see is some radical new kind of puzzle game.)

    ReplyDelete
  18. You got nothing to apologize for, this was an enjoyable read for me.

    In my general outlook on life, whenever things go smoothly, especially when too smoothly, that rings alarm bells in my head. So a realist point of view makes me relaxed.

    There have always been indie type of people, even way before the rise of this indie market craze so I'd not worry about them. The stubborn ones will keep doing what they like, even if this turns out to be a bubble that bursts.

    ReplyDelete
  19. "Also, the gaming community doesn't care about indies as much as we like to think they do. (Minecraft is an ultra-mega-uber hit, right? Well, Grand Theft Auto V made more than it in like 18 seconds.)"

    While I also think the "indie" label is only for the developers and the players just don't care (or even despise indie games because of the "crappy" graphics), I don't think a comparison between Minecraft and GTA V is that fair. For example, I don't know if anyone who worked directly on GTA V is a millionaire now - notch most certainly became one thanks to Minecraft. In this sense, Minecraft might be seen as more successful ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's not about how much you made, it's about the Return Of Investment :P

      Delete
  20. Very interesting read, I never thought of the explosion of indie games as a bad thing for new indie devs coming into the business but more of a way to attract them more visibility.
    The indie market is getting crowded, and in the end, only the consumers will identify which game to get. That is why small blogs reviewing unknows indie titles should be considered y these developers to make a showcase of their games

    ReplyDelete
  21. I like to believe that if you produce a high quality title you will get noticed eventually. Yeah, the market is flooded with titles and customers have a lot to choose from and many just wait until titles end up in some bundle for $5. But there are still plenty success stories like Rimworld where the developer managed to raise $380k for a product which is still in early alpha.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I think the "Indies AAA" blogs needs a article like this.
    I started study some marketing tips and many of them treats marketing plan like cake recipe, do this, this and that and you will succeed, and you don't need to think so much to find that marketing plan a strange path to follow.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Thanks. I always enjoy reading your posts - they are always humorous and intelligent.I am a china tour lover,You can learn more: China travel service | China tour packages | China tour agents

    ReplyDelete
  24. I don't think of this as bad news, just a maturing industry. Yes, it's super competitive and a bit daunting to try and piece together a living but I'm still encouraged by the number of games that are being made today. I think there are a lot of similarities to the music biz. It's difficult to become a rock star but there are a range of career paths available today that didn't exist 20 years ago, mostly due to technology. It may not be any easier to strike it rich, but if that's our goal then we're destined to be miserable regardless of the state of the industry. The indie game bubble may be bursting, but it still feels like an exciting world of possibility.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I think you put too much emphasis on the luck factor. Sure, there are many many amazing games that no one hears about, but that is primarily because of bad/lack of marketing.

    If you really have an amazing game, and a a marketing prodigy, and you have perseverance and a little free time, I think you could still get yourself known in this market (though it is probably over twice as hard to get noticed now than it was two years ago).

    ReplyDelete
  26. There's a market out there that pretty much gets ignored my indie developers. Why? Because that segment isn't usually interested in Slenderman knockoffs, blasting things, mayhem, and zombies.
    That market is made mostly of... (wait for it)... women over 35.

    I'm a woman. I'm over 35. I'm not a developer, not a hairy bearded white guy, not what you would call a hardcore gamer. Nope. I'm 51, black and have been playing video games since Pong came out. I have no interest in killing things, even virtual ones. Time management games involving kitchens, diners and fashion bore me - I'm not 12. I don't have hours to spend shouting into a microphone so that teenage boys can call me names for being a girl, and I have no desire to pretend to be a drug dealer or a super soldier. I played Dungeons and Dragons the first time around, and I don't want to play with clerics and elves anymore. Instead, I play HOGs by companies like Blue Tea, elephant, and Artifex Mundi, not because they are wonderful, but because I like having some sort of story (no matter how ludicrous), some adventure without tons of bloodshed, and some fun that won't take up all of my time. The past year I fell in love with playing The Walking Dead from Telltale, even though I hate zombies. Why? The main characters were a black man who wasn't a thug, and a little girl who was Asian, and there were lots of female characters, none of whom dressed like crazy whores. I bought the entire series. I also bought The Room, because I had to use my mind a lot; Devil's Attorney, because it's funny as hell and I get the 80's references; The Dorian Grey Syndrome, because it's one of the few adventure HOGs that was genuinely creepy and disturbing; and so on. In fact, I keep thinking that I should ask YourGibs to ply it- did you know that there are a bunch of us women who swoon over a guy we've never seen, because he genuinely loves the Nancy Drew game series?

    I will probably get Papa Sangre eventually, and a few others like that, but I'm really not into horror as such, even though I devour Big Fish Games' heroines with a spoon. Not enough games have women as protagonists, or involve steamy romance (make a game out of the Sookie Stackhouse novels and tons of women will buy it) or have genuine thoughtfulness and mystery. If you want me to buy a game, you have to give me something I'll want to play over and over without feeling patronized, especially since women like me have been playing games longer than most developers have been alive.

    There are differ types of hardcore. Stop thinking that hardcore only means war, violence and monsters and remember that the early hardcore gamers (I was one of them, before developers defined me otherwise) played Galaxian, Star Wars, Donkey Kong, King's Quest and Centipede. By ignoring people like me, you're ignoring people with a disposable income, plenty of gaming experience, and a hunger for something that will take them out of the everyday, if only for a little while. Considering how much time women like me spend gaming, it's silly to call our interest 'casual' just because it doesn't involve Doritos and Mountain Dew.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    2. Absolutely brilliant comment, Sapientia. For decades, marketers have targeted teenagers and 20-somethings with their products, and for decades they've been missing the mark.

      There are a lot more of us "mature" gamers, and at least half of us are female. My wife games, my son's girlfriend games, women are more active than men in many fan communities, and so on.

      "Sparklies" will only get a game developer so far, but they seem to be the main output of the AAA studios. Gamers who have seen it all want great stories and meaningful roles that involve more thought than when to pull the trigger.

      One of the reasons so many indie games fail is that they don't offer any more in the way of story, setting, or fun game play than the more expensive games they are cloning. They can't compete with the AAA studios on special effects, and they aren't focusing on story. I saw some nice games at Casual Connect, but most of them were all about the visuals, and nothing about story or characters.

      Am I just a curmudgeon repeating my own past (adventure games and RPG's)? Maybe, but I think there is still a large under-served market of players who want to experience stories and not just a series of adrenaline surges.

      Delete
  27. That second puppy ain't a puppy, I want my refund.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Now I'm totally depressed. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Travel light and don't own a house :o) I guess I am perfectly fit for this awesome life as a game developer :)

    Merry Christmas to all of you :)

    ReplyDelete
  30. Such a very useful article. Very interesting to read this article.I would like to thank you for the efforts you had made for writing this awesome articleedumains
    ipl t20 india
    blogandwp

    ReplyDelete
  31. I enjoy reading your post, it is humorous and intelligent.I am a china tour lover,You can learn more: China travel Info China tour packages

    ReplyDelete
  32. Beijing China is famous for the Great Wall, Forbidden City, tourist attractions, welcome to travel China and travel to Beijing.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Thanks. I always enjoy reading your posts - they are always humorous and intelligent.I am a china tour lover,You can learn more: China first lady tours in Summer Palace

    ReplyDelete
  34. Thanks. I always enjoy reading your posts - they are always humorous and intelligent.I am a china tour lover,You can learn more: China tours videos | Tour Beijing | China hotels

    ReplyDelete
  35. Im thankful for the article post. Will read on...
    happy diwali quotes

    ReplyDelete
  36. Enjoyed every bit of your article post.Thanks Again. Cool.
    diwali quotes

    ReplyDelete
  37. Thanks so much for the blog post.Much thanks again. Great.
    2015 whatsapp diwali wishes

    ReplyDelete
  38. I just could not depart your web site prior to suggesting that I really loved the standard info a person provide on your visitors?
    Premratandhanpayotorrentdownload.in

    ReplyDelete
  39. Very informative blog post.Much thanks again. Much obliged.
    Prem ratan dhan payo kickass torrent

    ReplyDelete
  40. This is a great inspiring article. I am pretty much pleased with your good work. You put really very helpful information. Keep it up. Keep blogging. Looking to reading your next post.Video Calling App

    ReplyDelete
  41. I am really glad to be here.I hope to see more great articles here in the future too so keep it up and good luck to all of you!http://www.georgiagrouptours.com |

    ReplyDelete
  42. You made some decent points there. I looked on the internet for the issue and found most individuals will go along with with your website. La Liga Spanyol College Basketball Best Rugby Player

    ReplyDelete
  43. hello guy
    Do you want To play game casino online
    Welcome To Gclub Casino online
    --Baccarat
    --Slot Jackpot
    Please Click Here My Website now
    Wish Lucky For You..Win Win
    บาคาร่าออนไลน์
    ออนไลน์
    Goldenslot
    Thanks you :D :D

    ReplyDelete
  44. hello ,Enjoyed every bit of your article post.Thanks Again. Cool.
    gclub
    gclub casino online

    ReplyDelete
  45. ROBLOX is empowered by a growing player base of more than 300,000 creators who generate an infinite variety of highly immersive experiences.

    These experiences range from 3D multi-player games and competitions, to interactive adventures where friends can take on new avatars to discover what it's like to be a dinosaur, a miner working a mine or an astronaut out in space.

    ReplyDelete
  46. According to information provided by the National Association of Unclaimed Property Administrators (NAUPA), 1 out of 8 people in the U.S. have unclaimed assets... With claims averaging claims of over $1,000!

    Find Unclaimed Federal & State Balances!

    ReplyDelete



  47. Thank you for sharing valuable information.(Good Man)

    SCR888

    ReplyDelete
  48. ความก้าวหน้าของเทคโนโลยีสื่อสาร ได้ถูกนำมาประยุกต์ใช้ในการทำธุรกรรมการซื้อขายสินค้าและบริการเกือบแทบทุกประเภท ช่วยอำนวยความสะดวกในการทำธุรกรรมการซื้อขายและรวมไปถึงการทำธุรกรรมทางการเงินด้วย

    ไม่ว่าจะเป็นการฝากเงิน ชำระเงิน ถอนเงินหรือและโอนเงิน ก็สามารถดำเนินการทางออนไลน์ได้เช่นเดียวกัน ให้ความถูกต้องแม่นยำร้อยเปอร์เซ็นต์ ความผิดพลาดเป็นศูนย์ ธุรกิจคาสิโนเองก็เช่นเดียวกัน ปัจจุบันได้นำเทคโนโลยีสื่อสารมาประยุกต์ใช้และเปิดให้บริการทางออนไลน์ ผู้ที่ชื่นชอบการเล่นไม่ต้องเดินทางไกลไปเล่นถึงต่างประเทศอีกแล้ว สามารถเล่นแบบออนไลน์ ผ่านทางเว็บไซต์ผู้บริการ ไม่ว่าจะชื่นชอบการเล่นคาสิโนสด เล่นเกมส์สล็อต วางเดิมพันผลกีฬาหรือวางเดิมพันอื่นๆ ก็สามารถวางเดิมพันผ่านเว็บไซต์ผู้ให้บริการได้ เป็นคาสิโนออนไลน์ได้เงินจริง ผู้ที่ต้องการวางเดิมพันผ่านผู้ให้บริการคาสิโนออนไลน์ อย่างแรกเลยต้องสมัครเป็นสมาชิกและเปิดบัญชีฝากเงินกับเว็บไซต์ผู้ให้บริการ เพื่อใช้เป็นเครดิตในการวางเดิมพันก่อน

    เมื่อฝากเงินและมียอดเงินเป็นเครดิตแล้ว ก็สามารถใช้ยอดเงินนั้นเลือกวางเดิมพันได้ ทั้งคาสิโนสด เกมส์สล็อต ทายผลกีฬาและอื่นๆ ที่เว็บไซต์เปิดให้บริการ หากแพ้เดิมพันยอดเงินก็จะถูกตัดทอนไปจากยอดเงินฝากตามจำนวนที่วางเดิมพัน ถ้าหากชนะเดิมพันยอดเงินฝากก็จะเพิ่มขึ้นตามจำนวนที่ชนะเดิมพัน ไม่ว่าจะเป็นการเลือกวางเดิมพัน การฝากเงินหรือการถอนเงิน ทั้งหมดจะเป็นการทำผ่านเว็บไซต์คาสิโนออนไลน์ทั้งสิ้น ซึ่งเปิดให้บริการตลอด 24 ชั่วโมงไม่มีวันหยุด

    คาสิโนออนไลน์ได้เงินจริง

    ReplyDelete
  49. You should take part in a contest for one of the best blogs on the web. I will recommend this site!

    Click Here
    Myfolio.com

    ReplyDelete
  50. เลเซอร์หน้าใส เป็นอีกหนึ่งสิ่งใหม่ทางความสวยงามที่ช่วยฟื้นฟูผิวหนังที่แห้งกระด้าง บริเวณใบหน้าหมองคล้ำให้กลับมาแจ่มใสมองสดชื่น ผ่องใสภายในช่วงระยะเวลาอันเร็ว นับว่าเป็นทางลัดความสวยงามที่กำลังเป็นที่นิยมสูง ช่วยดูแลผิวให้ขาวกระจ่างขาวสวยใส เลเซอร์หน้าใส
    เลเซอร์ลดริ้วรอย
    เลเซอร์รอยสิว
    จากการลดลางเลือนริ้วรอยจุดด่างดำได้อย่างมีคุณภาพ

    ReplyDelete
  51. มาเด้ เป็นอย่างไร? เป็นส่วนประกอบของสารสกัดที่มาจากธรรมชาติมีทั้งยังวิตามินรวม ธาตุ เอนเหล้าองุ่นแล้วก็เชลล์บรรเทา
    มีทั้งยังพลาสเซนต้าและก็คอลลาเจนโดนสารทั้งหมดจำเป็นจะต้องผ่านขั้นตอนตระเตรียมสูตรยาแบบ(Homeopathy)
    เป็นศาสตร์การบำบัดที่มีต้นกำเนิดมาจาก สหพันธ์สาธารณรัฐเยอรมนี โดยกานศึกษาและทำการค้นพบของแพทย์ ซามุเอลฮาเนมัน แก่มากยิ่งกว่า 200
    ปีโดยมีวิธีการบรรเทาว่า (ใช้สิ่งที่คล้ายคลึงกันมารักษาสิ่งที่คล้ายคลึงกัน) หรือการนำเอาสารที่เป็นต้นเหตุของอาการนั้นๆ

    มาเด้
    มาเด้ หน้าใส
    ฉีดมาเด้ ที่ไหนดี

    ReplyDelete

  52. It is actually a great and useful piece of information. I am glad that you shared this helpful information with us. Please keep us informed like this. Thank you for sharing.
    online casino

    ReplyDelete
  53. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Online slot games that are highly popular now. We come to introduce you to Slotciti. It's a game that is easy to play. Real money With a variety of games and international standards Making it highly secure and confident There are many games to choose from.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Game of the year, playing the most fun online games We enjoy the 918kiss online slot game. Shoot fish online.Bacarrat online. Sic-bo online. Poker online . Thanks for the space That let us introduce the game to your blog Thanks again

    ReplyDelete
  56. Very Awesome write up !!! You have provided best efforts Here Thank You for This
    Great Blog Post. I am going to Bookmark your Blog for Further Visit.

    Walmartone Login
    Mysubwaycard
    Mygiftcardsite
    Freedom APK
    Walmart Credit Card Login
    Tell Subway

    ReplyDelete
  57. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  58. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I want to to thank you for this excellent read!! I certainly enjoyed every little bit of it. I have got you bookmarked to check out new stuff you post…

    Passover Songs 2019
    Passover Songs 2019 For Celebration
    Happy Passover Songs 2019
    Passover Songs 2019 And Images
    Passover Songs 2019 And Greetings

    ReplyDelete
  60. Tree Hotel associate exuberant love of Indian street food and a kitsch sense of humor. The decoration is bright and spirited with Indian vogue decorations, tawdrily coloured chairs. The food is equally exuberant with a variety of assorted indian dishes to settle on from, some gently and exquisitely spiced, others fiery and made. The conjointly do a good curry and conjointly western offerings (t-bone cut of meat and a mix grill) for those not within the mood for mix and match dishes.

    Indian Restaurant in Oxford
    Best places to eat in Oxford
    Party venue in Oxford

    ReplyDelete
  61. The above post has given reliable and genuine information about Assignment Help Australia. Looking forward to avail their eminent services.

    samsung care number
    samsung service center near me

    ReplyDelete
  62. Stunning, brilliant site design! To what extent have you been blogging for? you made blogging look simple. The general look of your site is magnificent,and additionally the substance!. Much obliged For Your article.
    flipkart customer care
    flipkart big billion days
    flipkart helpline
    flipkart app download
    flipkart no cost emi | bajaj finserv emi card
    flipkart buyback guarantee
    flipkart seller support number
    flipkart internship
    flipkart smartbuy
    Download flipkart app For PC/Laptop Windows 10/7/8.1/8/XP

    ReplyDelete
  63. very nice and interesting content visit my blog mercedes coupe class for sale

    ReplyDelete
  64. This is very good piece of work. Please keep it Up.
    Periodontist The woodlands

    ReplyDelete
  65. The knowledge is really enjoyable and informative simultaneously.
    Best app to record screen activity or video playing on screen.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Mr. Kanhaiyya Gulati state that Individuals who do the things the manner in which they have dependably been done will in the best case get similar outcomes once more. It is anything but a mystery that notwithstanding for remaining in a similar spot you need to run quicker and quicker. kanhaiya gulati

    ReplyDelete
  67. great place to get knowledge ... good was usefull
    https://startcareer.co.in

    ReplyDelete
  68. $299? Of course that's enough to make 2D game like you did. But, to make an HD game, that was not enough.
    idn poker domino qq
    tripoker
    poker bonus idn
    idn poker
    cara deposit poker idn play
    dl.pussy888com

    ReplyDelete
  69. http://cutesoft.net/forums/default.aspx

    ReplyDelete
  70. ijin promo yahhh
    EDENPOKER adalah situs judi game online terbaik dengan ranting kemenangan terbesar yang pernah ada di indonesia.
    Kartu bagus,mudah menang dan banyak bonus.
    Pendaftaran dapat dibantu ! Proses Depo Wd cepat dan aman,
    Dapat dimainkan di HP / Smartphone kesayangan anda loh...

    ReplyDelete
  71. Wow such great and effective guide
    Thank you so much for sharing this.
    Thenku Again

    ReplyDelete
  72. Thanks for sharing good post . This post is very useful to me Thenks Again

    ReplyDelete
  73. Numpang ya bossku ^^

    HANYA DI KENARI POKER BANYAK BONUSNYA BOSSKU
    Bonus Welcome Untuk New Member:
    - Bagi deposit Rp.10,000 - Rp.14,999 Bonus Rp.5.000
    - Bagi deposit Rp.15,000 - Rp.24,999 Bonus Rp.10.000
    - Bagi deposit Rp.25,000 - Rp.49,999 Bonus Rp.15.000
    - Bagi deposit Rp.50,000 - Rp.99,999 Bonus Rp.20.000
    - Bagi deposit Rp.100,000 ke atas Bonus Rp.25.000
    - Bonus next deposit 5% untuk deposit Rp.50.000
    REAL PLAYER VS PLAYER !!!

    ReplyDelete
  74. This Blog is great, and I never seen a Blog like this…..
    I really be grateful for you work and Thanks for providing us a great Platform for share information’s with others.

    Hacking क्या है,और Hacks के प्रकार

    ReplyDelete
  75. Interesting article! Make me get to know more about India. I personally found there are many amazing videos that reflect Indian culture and life on this app: Likee app

    ReplyDelete
  76. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Replies
    1. This is not justice , you only delete my comment there are too much others.

      Delete
  78. OneVanilla Gift Card
    Things change with time, obviously, if you know, what this implies you can come to see loads of things concerning life. This isn't a position you should surrender and possibly not permit fabulous stuff in the long run you. This why you should embrace the modifications which incorporate. You could be someone who reliably loves most things you see and furthermore might need to go to it, so ensure you additionally remember that money don't remain with the individuals who spend pointlessly. 1 stunning thing is that vanilla prepaid mastercard furnishes you with the possibility of going for those exercises that is important to you and it's ensured.
    check one vanilla
    one vanilla balance

    ReplyDelete
  79. Greetings! Very helpful advice within this article! It is the little changes that produce the largest changes. Many thanks for sharing!



    selenium training in Bangalore

    Selenium Courses in Bangalore

    best selenium training institute in Bangalore

    selenium training institute in Bangalore

    ReplyDelete
  80. Awesome information and read latest article educational

    And all entertainment related information Awesome information sir Fb Styles Name

    ReplyDelete
  81. My Name is Sagar Chauhan Founder of CashLootera.com I've shared many Refer and Earn Apps on my blog. Also I shared many Referral & Coupon Codes Recently.

    So Go and checkout new collection of Best Refer and Earn Apps

    Don't Forget to checkout RozDhan Referral Code Earn Free Recharge with these App True Balance Referral Code I've Shared many Refer and Earn Apps. Also I shared best free shopping app Club Factory Referral Code Recently.

    So don't miss the Chance to earn Rs.1,00,000 this month go and checkout thsi Google Pay Referral Code CashBoss Referral Code

    ReplyDelete
  82. Thank you so much for sharing with such a informative post
    webinhindi

    ReplyDelete
  83. Hi,I must Say is a best article.
    One Vanilla Prepaid Gift Card Balance MasterCard is a registered trademark of MasterCard International Incorporated.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Hey,
    Thanks for sharing this helpful & wonderful post. i really appreciate your hard work. this is very useful & informative for me.
    thanks for sharing with us. thanks a lot.

    Factguide.net
    99techspot.in

    Fb comments in hindi

    Amazing facts in hindi

    ReplyDelete
  85. will support the site very well.
    https://shareitdownload.net/

    ReplyDelete
  86. Mast artical shere Kiya hai Apne

    https://www.bajrangisoch.com/2019/11/maharana-partap-in-hindi.html?m=1

    https://www.bajrangisoch.com/2019/11/maharana-partap-in-hindi.html?m=1

    ReplyDelete
  87. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Snapdeal Winner List to here an Offer where you can win the prize by just playing a game & win prizes.Here the different Snapdeal prize listavaliable check the details : Snapdeal winner list ,Snapdeal winner name,Snapdeal lucky draw.

    ReplyDelete
  89. if you want to all latest updates by jntuk so...
    click here

    ReplyDelete

  90. smart outsourcing solutions is the best outsourcing training
    in Dhaka, if you start outsourcing please
    visit us: Graphic design training in dhaka

    ReplyDelete
  91. Thanks For Sharing Really Helpfull Post Diabetes Ke Kaarn Thanks For Sharing Really Helpfull Post IRCTC Kya Hai Thanks For Sharing Really Helpfull Post Confirm Tatkal Ticket Kaise Book Kare Thanks For Sharing Really Helpfull Post Khun Ki Kami Kaise Dur Kare Thanks For Sharing Really Helpfull Post NPS Kya Hai

    ReplyDelete
  92. In this post, you share lemon's best information, I am grateful to you for this.
    Check My Amazing Blog.

    1. Facebook comments in hindi
    2. Amazing Facts in hindi
    3. Best Latest Ringtones 2020

    ReplyDelete
  93. Thanks for sharing this post, it was great reading this article! would like to know more! keep in touch and stay connected! Also write some article on funding for new startup companies.

    ReplyDelete
  94. ts very nice and thanks for those good information .I wonder if yo checked some of these Gaura festival
    Why Nepal was never colonized thanks and i am from Nepal the country of budha

    ReplyDelete
  95. Haloo pak^^

    Kami dari SENTANAPOKER ingin menawarkan pak^^

    Untuk saat ini kami menerima Deposit Melalui Pulsa ya pak.

    *untuk minimal deposit 10ribu
    *untuk minimal Withdraw 25ribu

    *untuk deposit pulsa kami menerima provider
    -XL
    -Telkomsel


    untuk bonus yang kami miliki kami memiliki
    *bonus cashback 0,5%
    *bunus refferal 20%
    *bonus gebiar bulanan (N-max,samsung Note 10+,Iphone xr 64G,camera go pro 7hero,Apple airpods 2 ,dan freechips)

    Daftar Langsung Di:

    SENTANAPOKER

    Kontak Kami;

    WA : +855 9647 76509
    Line : SentanaPoker
    Wechat : SentanaPokerLivechat Sentanapoker

    Proses deposit dan withdraw tercepat bisa anda rasakan jika bermain di Sentanapoker. So… ? tunggu apa lagi ? Mari bergabung dengan kami. Pelayanan CS yang ramah dan Proffesional dan pastinya sangat aman juga bisa anda dapatkan di Sentanapoker.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Thanks for your post! Through your pen I found the problem up interesting! I believe there are many other people who are interested in them just like me! Thanks your shared!… I hope you will continue to have similar posts to share with everyone!
    Thank You So Much
    CLICK HERE
    Paytm KYC Center Near Me

    ReplyDelete
  97. Very Good post about marketing dumb and popping Plase check my blog Fadu comments for instagram

    ReplyDelete
  98. Wonderful post i really like it also share it on GBWhatsApp with friends

    ReplyDelete
  99. nice work buddy check this too it will help:- paytm account delete

    ReplyDelete
  100. Thanks for making such a cool post which is really very well written.will be referring a lot of friends about this.Keep blogging also write a blog about bitcoin mining could be legal in India

    ReplyDelete
  101. Welcome Snapdeal online lucky Draw Contest 2020. You Can Win here many prizes and you have chance to be a billionaire just call +91-8847656327
    "Snapdeal lucky winner 2020 |Snapdeal Winner List 2020 here came up with an Offer where you can win Snapdeal prize by just playing a game & win prizes
    Snapdeal winner 2020
    Snapdeal lucky Draw 2020
    Check your Lucky Draw prizes here
    Check your Lucky Draw prizes here

    ReplyDelete
  102. I was very encouraged to find this site. The reason being that this is such an informative post. I wanted to thank you for this informative analysis of the subject. shareit
    cartoonhd

    ReplyDelete
  103. Very interesting,good job and thanks for sharing such a good blog.your article is so

    convincing that I never stop myself to say something about it.You’re doing a great job.Keep

    it up free movies

    ReplyDelete
  104. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  105. this post is very useful me.this information is use in onlineapplication

    ReplyDelete
  106. You have a great blog here! would you like to make some invite posts on my blog?

    Med.alexu.edu.eg
    Information
    Click Here

    ReplyDelete
  107. ลักษณะเด่นของ แทงบอล168 ขอดีของ ufa777 รวมทั้ง ufabet.com ปากทางเข้า ยูฟ่าเบท168



    อีกหนึ่งคุณลักษณะเด่นของทางเว็บของพวกเราก็คือ การเล่น บอลสเต็ป อย่างต่ำเริ่ม 2-12 คู่ พนันอย่างต่ำ 10 บาท เหมาะกับผู้เล่นทุนน้อย หรือนักเสี่ยงดวงที่อยากแบบขำๆเล่นแบบชิวๆไม่คิดมากมาย พวกเราก็ให้บริการ แต่ว่าสำหรับผู้เล่นไม้ต้น อยากได้พนันหลักล้าน ทางเว็บไซต์พวกเราก็มีจ่าย เพราะเหตุว่าเว็บไซต์พวกเรา เป็นเว็บไซต์ใหญ่จ่ายจริง ยืนยันการคลัง ไม่มีอันตราย และก็ มั่นคง 100%

    ReplyDelete
  108. Thanks for another informative blog. The place else
    could I am getting that kind of information written in such
    an ideal way? I’ve a undertaking that I am just now operating on, and I’ve been on the glance out for
    such info.
    anymusic crack
    smart driver updater crack
    cisdem video converter crack
    izotope rx 5 crack latest version serial key

    ReplyDelete