Wednesday, September 21, 2011

The Hardest Game. For Adults.


I have come to realize that, for adults, Minecraft is among the most difficult of all video games.

Bear with me.

Minecraft is amazing for kids. All of the children in our social circle have been completely absorbed into the Minecraft collective. They make huge towns. They discuss the relative merits of the Adventure Update. They install mods. They set up LANs and explore each others' worlds. Whatever its merits as an educational game, it's certainly made our kids learn what an IP address is.

When we took our nine-year old daughter to PAX, she insisted on waiting in line to have her picture taken with Notch, Minecraft's creator. I spoke with him and mentioned that I run Spiderweb Software. He said that he'd played Avernum. This one fact did more to elevate me in her view than any single event since her creation.

The kids are mad about the game, making spiraling towers, roller-coasters, water slides, and mad dreamscapes.

But what about the adults?
 
What Adults Frequently Say About Minecraft

Many of the guardians of these children tried Minecraft themselves. Few of them played more than an hour or two. Now note, these are nerd grown-ups, gamers, people who actually finish games. Grown-ups rarely have time to play games. These are people who make time. But I played for more than any of them, logging a mere ten hours.

But that's not what got my attention. What I found so fascinating was that, when I asked my fellow olds what they thought of it, I always got a similar response:

"I didn't know what to do."
"I didn't see the point of it."
"I didn't have a purpose."


And then they looked at me as if all this made perfect, self-evident sense. And the thing is, it did. I always nodded with genuine sympathy.

And then I realized how depressing that is.

A Thought Experiment

Suppose you asked an adult, "What do you think of Legos?" and got the response, "I don't like them. I just look at them, and don't know what to do. What is the purpose? What is their point?"

What would you think of this response? Would you find that person to be Awesome? And not, maybe, I don't know, just a wee bit depressing?

Tell me, what do you think of paper? "It's blank. That stresses me out." What about clay? "I don't know what to make, so it's pointless." Look. You can make things with this. "But creativity makes me tired."

I'm not pretending I'm not the same way. I don't think I'm any better than my peers. I'm just the same.

Look What I Did With It, Because I'm So Great

I had a blast playing Minecraft! I built a little house, so that I could be safe from monsters. I made a mine. And then you know what I created?

I built a two story house for a family of four. Bedroom for the parents. Bedroom for two children. Kitchen. Workshop. Field of crops so we could eat. A big wall to keep us safe. I even baby-safed the damn thing, to keep my non-existant Minecraft four-year old from falling down the stairs and into a lava pool.

And then I was done. I recreated the world I see around me every day, to the maximum fidelity cube-world would allow. And then I stopped playing. Success.

Isn't that extra-depressing? Even in my fantasy world, I had to have a mortgage.

Why Minecraft Is the Hardest Of Games. For Adults.

I have not made any big, unique discovery here. It's been common knowledge for a long time that a kid can have just as much fun with a toy as with the box it came in. We take this loss of creativity as we age for granted. It's only when it happens with a video game, the sort of thing adults can play, with weapons and monsters and gold, that it comes into much sharper relief. Of course adults don't color with crayons. That activity is in a box in our brains labeled "Kid Stuff," and we can ignore it safely.

But Minecraft is new, so we have to evaluate it with fresh eyes.

To play Minecraft (before the release of promised updates with boss fight and goals and other dreadful things), you have to play. Not in the linear way, walking down a hall and shoot guys in the face on the one course the designer created for you.

To play Minecraft, you have to Play. Playground-style, without fear or hesitation or second-guessing. You have to, without self-consciousness, be creative. My old, withered, linear, fight-or-flight, calculate-reward-for-effort brains just can't do that anymore, not without great strain. To play Minecraft for more than a few minutes, you have to act like a kid again, in the good way. And that is HARD.

I don't know if I can do it. One of these days, some rare, free afternoon, I really need to sit down for an hour, just an hour, and try.

63 comments:

  1. Minecraft is not a game. If you are calling Minecraft a game, then Lego is a game, and then modeling clay is a game? And then "Game" has lost all meaning.

    People create little games using the software called minecraft, but I just think it's important to note that it is not a game (which is a system of rules in which one or more agents compete by making meaningful decisions).

    Please understand that to say something is or is not a game is not a value judgment. I love Minecraft, but I also think it's important that we're clear with our language.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Wow, that sounds depressing. It is really sad when you can not see the magic in minecraft. Of course I have to agree I did not build anything as amazing as some out there. But building an awesome steampunk crafthall or Castle in the clouds or... there is so much stuff that evolves almost naturally simply by digging in the environment an placing one block to the next. If you lost the abillity to imagine and see these things I would say you really need to evaluate your perception of the world and really try hard to get your inner child back into the light. I know that that is sometimes really hard to do in our busy lifes with all the worries we adults have, but it is one of the greatest journeys you can make. I am not as creative as I was as a Kid and I need much more inspiration by others to get the juice flowing again but I am lucky enough to really enjoy things like minecraft.

    ReplyDelete
  3. I find nothing in the post or the comments I disagree with. These are all very good points.

    It's interesting, where I work, that some people are deemed "creative" and some are not. It's revolting that, even among adults, some of us are willing to label ourselves uncreative.

    I wonder when and how some of us lose the ability.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I'm 40, and the first hour I spent in Minecraft, I was digging a tiny hovel for myself to wait for dawn. By the next day I killed hours in Minecraft digging as far into the earth as I could, finding a vast underground river, and building a dizzyingly high tower from which I could see around Minecraft's virtual world for miles in every direction. It was awesome.

    I'm not looking forward to the boss fights and goal-oriented features... if I had my way, our server wouldn't even be in survival mode. It seems rare now that a game offers the freedom and flexibility to discover new things and go in any direction you like...

    I find this especially ironic from the creator of Avernum, no less. You create massive worlds out of whole cloth all the time, as far as I can tell. Surely there's got to be some joy in that.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Keith, I think you'll find many people that disagree with you on this. There are bodies of scholarship dedicated to the anthropological origin of play and games, and they can't even agree on what constitutes a game. (Huizinga's Homo Ludens comes to mind.) It's not as simple as, "I can't see an end-game objective, so this cannot be a game."

    ReplyDelete
  6. Sorry for the second comment, but I have to wonder if this isn't related to your previous post about not finishing games. Is enjoying Minecraft hard because there is no set amount of hours to spend on the game? Does its endless, open-ended nature makes it not a "worthwhile use of one's time"? Because it's certainly been a time-sucker from my perspective.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Nailed it! Minecraft freaked me out but I couldn't articulate exactly why. The sentence near the bottom of the post,
    "My old, withered, linear, fight-or-flight, calculate-reward-for-effort brains just can't do that anymore, not without great strain."
    sums it up perfectly for me.
    I think Minecraft is a fine, fine "toy" to play with and I spent the better part of a few hours playing with it. ...and then moved on.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Eh, I had a similar reaction to Minecraft, it doesn't worry me, and I don't think it should concern you. You create worlds! You make big complicated things! Why would you care to sink your time into playing in someone else's limited little sandbox when you have the freedom to make anything at all you can imagine? As a game-maker, you haven't lost the child's sense of expressive, creative play.. instead you get to indulge it more fully, in a deeper, more worthwhile, more permanent way! That's like Lego, or Minecraft, or whatever, but better.

    ReplyDelete
  9. While I don't take issue with the point you're making, Brog, I do have to disagree with characterizing Minecraft as a "limited little sandbox." Some of the things people have done with it are truly amazing.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Same with Lego, yeah, people have done some nice stuff. (Although some of it is "it's amazing that they did this with Minecraft" rather than "this is an inherently amazing thing".) But it's justified to call it limited in comparison to what you can do with, e.g. the ability to make arbitrary software.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I've always described Minecraft as, "sort of like Legos on the computer, but with zombies and explosions."

    ReplyDelete
  12. I have never tried Minecraft, nor has my 14yr old son.
    He loves Zelda and Harvest-Moon. He ignores cuss games.

    Q: Do you think I should steer him to Mindcraft?
    It sounds interesting from your description.

    thanks
    jp

    ReplyDelete
  13. Keith,

    Just because your definition of "game" doesn't fit the mold of minecraft doesn't mean that we should all listen to your pitiful opinion of what a game is or is not. Merriam-Webster (a well known dictionary) defines a "game" as : "activity engaged in for diversion or amusement" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/game

    Under that definition, Minecraft is indeed a game. Please do some research before you post your nonsensical views.

    P.S. If someone were to engage in activity with legos for amusement then it too would be considered a game.

    ReplyDelete
  14. This is weird for me, because I got here via a facebook link, just wanting to read about Minecraft. Then I was "spiderweb software? wut?" and had a massive Exile nostalgia flashback. The creator of one my favourite games as a kid (second only to the Marathon series and Civilization II), one of the few shareware games I ever registered, is talking about one of my favourite games as an adult, and has actually met that creator too! My brain is refusing to admit that these connections exist...

    ReplyDelete
  15. I've played Minecraft for the same reason that I see certain movies or read certain books. It's part of the pop culture. I want to be able to understand the references. The fact that I have a teenage daughter is part of the equation. If she puts on a "Creepers Gonna Creep" T-shirt then I want to know what that's all about.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Man, this looks like it could get heated fast.

    The reason I do not play Minecraft is because I can visualize the effort to reward ratio and deem it personally wasteful. It is not about instant gratification but rather the excessive amount of time that is required to do some of the simplest tasks.

    And because of that I can appreciate when someone else makes a giant roller coaster or house or whatever. But I just do not have enough time to follow through myself.

    Now in regards to the article the quotes from other adults in line do not resemble that of uncreative sloths but genuine confusion. To follow along the LEGO example, if the person had made similar statements, I would venture to guess that they did not understand the rules about LEGOs connecting to one another due to not having previous experience.

    I would theorize that things are creative expressions because on some basic levels you understand how to manipulate it because of learning from others. It is easy to criticize others when you have knowledge from playing with your games but look down on them for not wanting to put in the effort for a toy.

    Everybody has their limits and Minecraft definitely sets the bar a little high and being unwelcoming to newcomers.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I think you're on to something here, but I think you're also missing something. I agree that kids are more able to play creatively with toys than adults, and that this is a little depressing. But I also know lots of adults (myself included) who like to play with toys -- with legos, or clay, or Zometool, or Geomag, or whatever. Adults may prefer more complex toys -- the toy, rather than the box, say -- but it's not just that adults don't like build creative stuff out of parts just for the heck of it.

    I think the difference is that adults don't get why it's fun to do that with something that "isn't real". When I build a cool Zometool thing, I can put it on my desk at work, and look at it and smile once in a while at how cool it is, and my co-workers who wander by my office can say "hey, cool". If I build a cool thing in Minecraft, it doesn't feel like it's "really there" somehow.

    This is less different in games: If you play a video game for forty hours and have a lot of fun, you don't end up with a real thing any more than you do if you play D&D in person for forty hours and have a lot of fun.

    Anyway, interesting stuff, but that's my two cents: Toys and games are different in this respect, and that what adults really don't get isn't "toys in general", but rather "virtual toys".

    ReplyDelete
  18. It may be worth noting, that when a "grown-up" wants to build a house - they can build a house. They do not have to "play" building a house. And if we want to creat imaginary worlds, we can create our own games. There are many minecraft-like activites that are open to adults. Just because making virtual cube houses seems unrewarding doesn't signal a lack of creativity in the adult. It may however signal that the adult has found more rewarding and durable ways to get their kicks.

    ReplyDelete
  19. What does creative mean?
    Does it mean liking to create things? Any things? Even low-quality, highly-derivative garbage? Does it mean having an active imagination? Are we talking about imagining action figures in conflict?
    Equating creativity to an affinity for architecture seems far too restrictive.

    As for Minecraft, I played it for 15 minutes before the intimidating crafting system repelled me. Harvesting a plank from a tree to build a tower seemed okay before I found out that i'd need
    to harvest a branch
    to build a table on which
    to rest the sticks which i'd whittle
    into the haft of the axe i'd soon make
    to cut the tree
    to harvest the logs that I couldn't yet shape
    into planks of wood.

    If I were to feel the need to develop some virtual acres, i'd rather make something for a fun(!) game that comes with a level editor.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Most adults don't play with Legos. So it shouldn't be surprising they don't necessarily want to do the computerized equivalent. As a previous poster said, I spent 3 years building a real house. That's a lot more interesting and satisfying than building a virtual house. I don't think that not wanting to spend time on just creating virtual constructs, when there is so much to do in the real world, is such a negative fact about people.

    ReplyDelete
  21. P.S. I find Terraria a lot more interesting than Minecraft, it has the play element but it also has actual goals.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Life and fantasy loses its magic as we get older. Fortunately, we gain direction and ability, which means we can stop imagining ourselves as a rock star and pick up a guitar and learn how to play it.

    ReplyDelete
  23. No, Jeff, acting as a kid is not that hard. It's just we need a proper medium to go back in time.
    I remember when I was a kid, my peers were playing with toy cars - activity, which I found very boring. So everyone played with toy cars. I played with toy soldiers...
    Minecraft just can not touch my heart. I am cold. On the contrary, I remember how I was carried away by Warlords, Starcraft, Mount&Blade, Blades of Exile...
    So I just wanted you to know Jeff, for me, your games are better than Minecraft :) Much better!

    Andrei

    ReplyDelete
  24. As a kid, I always loved Legos. In fact, I just busted out my tote full of them for my nephew.

    As an adult, I just can't bring myself to play Minecraft. It's just not that interesting.

    As a programmer, I thought it was a neat concept, so I spent a weekend making my own Minecraft clone. Then that got boring.

    Don't feel bad, Jeff.

    ReplyDelete
  25. This is one of your best blog posts ever, Jeff!

    I think you should send it to a computer game magazine or whatever the online equivalent is; they would sure as hell publish it.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Well...for 'adults' there is Dwarf Fortress. Tough, unforgiving, and requires a great deal of creativity.

    ReplyDelete
  27. As someone who spends a lot of time on the Minecraft forums, I've often thought to myself "Why must I deal with only children?! ARRRRGGGHHHH!" I find your observation fascinating. ^_^

    ReplyDelete
  28. I can understand exactly what your saying even though I'm someone who will admit they still keep a small stash of Lego in a drawer hidden in the corner of their room. If it's at all possible the most important thing you need to remember when playing a sandbox oriented game like Minecraft is to forget about everything else. And that isn't only including the outside influences and concerns of your life, but to also forget about what you want to potentially 'get out' of said game as well. Seek to accomplish nothing. Go collect some blocks and fight some mobs, then just start laying the blocks out and forming whatever comes to mind. It doesn't matter what it is as long as you try and continue to build. And when that creation is done, make something new and just keep creating for as long as you're able. Minecraft is a virtual notepad. It's a blank canvas that will never be complete, and that my friend is the most important aspect. You can't COMPLETE Minecraft. Unlike most games you will never be finished or done (and the infinite replay-ability is one of it's great marketable features I might add). But if you decide to try Minecraft again in earnest, read this quote before you do, "Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it."

    ReplyDelete
  29. I think, at least prior to the upcoming 1.9 and 1.10 updates ... MineCraft is more of a _TOY_, than merely a game.

    Games do, in fact, have goals. Games have purpose(s) for their players. Games have a story of some sort already built-in.

    Toys don't. Toys present and even challenge us with a myriad of _potential_ stories ... stories _we_ then have to create.

    Where a game says to us: "the story is THUS and SO", a toy _asks_ us "WHAT is the story?"

    If you retain at least a small spark of the kind of imagination that allows kids to play "make believe" or "let's pretend", I think you are more likely to enjoy Minecraft.

    If you don't? Not so much, unfortunately. Even if, as with Jeff, you're perfectly capable of crafting storylines, and even entire settings, that result in great games. Because TELLING a story, is not the same thing as "playing make-believe" and BEING the story, as it unfolds in real-time.

    ^_^

    And as a total aside, Minecraft is something I quite enjoy playing with - "despite" being a 40year-old. Guess I really _am_ still a kid at heart, eh? ^_^

    ReplyDelete
  30. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Even though I am one of those adults who plays the game and ends up building a house in the sky with a large wall around my stuff to protect me from the bad guys... it doesn't stop me from enjoying it. Something fun about leveling a mountain... Yes I have done that and then building something out of the stuff you got from the leveling. :) I guess it depends on what you need out of something... for me this works well.

    ReplyDelete


  32. Credit cards usage namely probable apt boost once afresh this holiday season. As usual, clients are in the mood of purchasing presents for their adored ones whiles shops are seeing forward to a imaginary profit. This inarguably, namely the best season as mostbusinesses.In fact, some take family as much as extra than 40% of their total annual profits during the Christmas season lonely. People, who may have saved throughout the year for this intention, there ambition be not worries but plenty apt look forward togood things of course. It likewise means they do no must worry approximately the credit card debt and the bills namely come in January.Loyal customers of the British-based corporation, Farepak Hampers have not been lucky as the "believed" company with which they have diligently deposited their money in the hope of using it ashore presents for their loved ones and families this Holiday season has spectarculary collapsed. The state of affairs manner that these purchasers are left with nobody and will must ascertain additional ways of acquiring money to buy their presents. With company bosses having pulled out of an priceless warranty scheme earlier to this breakdown, there is likely to be not compensation of anybody arrange for these forlorn clients.Company bosses from the failed company mention their bank HBOS UGG Sale, has severely disappointed them though the bank has published a long statement stating that the company bosses are to reprove since they refused to safe their lend using their own asset. Hence they were forced to pluck the plug ashore them. Worse still the former employer, William Rollason UGGs Boots, withdrew from the Direct Selling Association as he did no wish to shell out priceless assurance that covered customers saving for the festive holidays.For these disadvantageous customers of this beleagured company moncler, a fund has been set up for them with patrons such as HBOS. So distant merely ?3 milion has been raised, which naught compared to the ?40 UGG Sale,000,000 required. Thus some of the savers interviewed have said they will must fall on their credit card to make the shortfall. This is not the ideal, as credit card means debt in the hereafter and some may not be capable to pay the whole bill in full and the end of January leading to of sorts unwanted difficulties.To lest a huge credit card debt and the headache that comes with it Discount UGG Boots, it may be better to avert using a credit card altogether. Although links of london, we would always like to shell out some presents on our loved ones, it is best to do so within our allowance. Using your credit card for purchasing presents tin mean costing the repose of the following year just clearing those debts. The cumulative consequences can even land you with a low credit score and in absence of credit mend.Nevertheless, numerous of us are likely to use our credit cards. If so its major to do some amenable arranging.


    ReplyDelete
  33. I don't think it's inevitable or even usual for people to lose their creativity as they grow upo: I think they just direct that creativity in more focused ways. I know I'm more creative as an adult than I ever was as a child. When I was a kid, sure, I was *productive*... but most of what I was producing was an unthinking pastiche of whatever TV shows, books and games I was currently into. Now I'm capable of critically analysing my own work and using it to make real, personal statements about things that are important to me.

    Having said all that, I don't play Minecraft because I'm not a very spatially-oriented person, so building things in a virtual space isn't an appealing outlet for my creativity. Knowing your own strengths and weaknesses is part of growing up too.

    ReplyDelete
  34. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  35. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Cool Math Games-Cool math games have a large collection of gaming stuff find latest online computer games free on this website some cool math games are so simple to play online by the kids these games have great attraction for kids and they meet different targets and bonus points to achieve the specific items in these games.

    ReplyDelete
  37. I don't entirely agree. There's more to Lego than building for its own sake - you actually got to play with the stuff you build afterwards. You didn't just build a castle or space station and sit there and look at it, you'd have your lego guys have adventures in and around the stuff you just built. The building part could be fun, but there was also a point at the end of it.

    In Minecraft you can build whatever, but in the end it's just buildings and shapes sitting around in a landscape. You can't do a lot with them once they're done and there's not a lot of potential for imaginative narrative there.

    I fully understand why people who enjoy building stuff for the sake of building stuff would take so strongly to this game. But that's just one specific type of creativity, and personally the building aspects of Minecraft just don't do a lot to spark my imagination.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Might I suggest playing it multiplayer with your daughter, Jeff, if you haven't already done so? I didn't even have the motivation to play it until my friends invited me to join them on their server, and I had a blast. It's much easier to find stuff to do when you're playing together. Not to mention a crapload more fun :)

    ReplyDelete
  39. I'm 25 and I really enjoy Minecraft. But I see where you are coming from. I honestly wouldn't have played it for long if it wasn't for my brother. See we had a blast playing together, but rarely played the game seperately, mainly because it is a blast showing stuff off to a friend... :) I couldn't imagine playing single player... Our funnest time in the game was going into the nether nearly dying multiple times and hastily constructing a portal to get back, only to realize we didn't know which direction home was anymore... lol, it was awesome, so we built a new mini home in the ocean (out of glass) and we managed to find our way back and built a portal between the two.

    Heck I may even be able to get my wife to play... :)

    ReplyDelete
  40. I think this is true but part of the issue is that there are far better platforms for being creative than Minecraft. Like, say, full-featured modeling programs. Photoshop. Word processors where someone may actually give you money (and pay that mortgage) for your creativity.

    What's really depressing is that there's such a thing in this world as opportunity cost. For every hundred hours I spend building a Nyan Cat TARDIS in Minecraft, that's a hundred hours I haven't spent on something more worthwhile or lasting.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Great post! Keep it up the good work and also keep posting.
    pharmacy

    ReplyDelete
  42. Dude! Minecraft is great! I'm so very addicted to this game!


    Sanyo Seiki

    ReplyDelete
  43. I think this is among the most vital info for me. And i am glad reading your article. But should remark on few general things, The web site style is perfect, the articles is really great : D. Good job, cheers
    Small Antique Copper Paw Print Pet Urn

    ReplyDelete
  44. I have been checking out a few of your stories and it's clever stuff. I will surely bookmark your blog.
    Sculpture Cat Urn: Brown Tabby

    ReplyDelete
  45. Hello there, You have done an excellent job. I will definitely digg it and personally suggest to my friends. I'm confident they will be benefited from this site.
    Urnsdirect2u Cat Urn, 6 Inch

    ReplyDelete
  46. The author has written an excellent article. You have made your point and there is not much to argue about. It is like the following universal truth that you cannot argue with: No truth is universal, everything has its exception. Thanks for the info @ Engineering Services and Solutions | Engineering Answers

    ReplyDelete
  47. I enjoyed the article. But I have to say, as an adult Minecraft player, you CAN get into that playful creative mode again. Yes it is hard, but as with anything we haven't done in a while, it takes relearning and practice. Start with what you know and expand. Once you get going, the momentum takes over. I am also convinced it is good for your brain.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I think this is one of the most important information for me. And i am glad reading your article. But want to remark on some general things, The site style is ideal, the articles is really great. Agen Bola Judi Bola Bola Tangkas Tangkasnet 88Tangkas

    ReplyDelete
  49. Great job you people are doing with this website.
    download minecraft free

    ReplyDelete
  50. One is always on a strange road, watching strange scenery and listening to strange music, then one day EQ2 Plat, you will find that the things you try hard to forget are already gone EQ2 Platinum, If you love something, set it free, if it comes back to you, it is yours EQ2 Gold.

    The bravery of each bull is then rated with care according to the number of times he demonstrates his willingness to charge in spite of the sting of the blade Runescape gp, Henceforth will I recognize that each day I am tested by life in like manner. If I persist, if I continue to try, if I continue to charge forward, I will succeed rs gp, Your future depends on your dreams Runescape2 Gold. So go to sleep. Do not keep anything for a special occasion..

    ReplyDelete
  51. All adults who play minecraft have no lives and all adults who cannot grasp the point of minecraft have meaningless lives. That is how it is and how it will be until the end of time.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I am truly inspired by this online journal! Extremely clear clarification of issues is given and it is open to every living soul. I have perused your post, truly you have given this extraordinary informative data about it. Sbobet

    ReplyDelete
  53. Your style is very unique in comparison to other people I've read stuff from. I appreciate you for posting when you have the opportunity, Guess I will just book mark this blog.
    sbobet casino

    ReplyDelete
  54. Everything is very open with a very clear clarification of the challenges. It was really informative. Your website is useful. Many thanks for sharing!
    sbobet thanks for spending the time to discuss this matter here on your site.

    ReplyDelete
  55. I must thank you for the efforts you've put in penning this blog. I am hoping to check out the same high-grade content by you in the future as well. In fact, your creative writing abilities has inspired me to get my very own blog now ;)
    I'm more than happy to find this great site. I wanted to thank you for ones time for this particularly fantastic read!! I definitely liked every part of it and I have you bookmarked to look at new things on your website.sbobet casino

    ReplyDelete
  56. Way cool! Some very valid points!
    ibcbet I appreciate you writing this article plus the rest of the website is also very good.

    ReplyDelete