tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post5611211587134784125..comments2024-03-29T06:29:40.213-07:00Comments on The Bottom Feeder: Video Games Are Art. Kinda. Sorta. If You Squint.Jeff Vogelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-75723364042835023762022-01-11T22:09:23.555-08:002022-01-11T22:09:23.555-08:00Thanks for sharing this.,
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Chess isn't art, but the pieces you play with can be beautiful works of art. Monopoly isn't art, but the board in all board games are filled with art. Figure skating is a sport, but often contains dance, choreography, costuming and music. Put another way, a picture frame isn't art simply because it contains the Mona Lisa. And the since the game half of video games can never be art, video games can't be art. So I can completely understand Ebert's position. But, personally, I think dismissing a Mona Lisa just because it's in some utilitarian frame would be a crime.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10382232327902119343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-81764727175935575492010-05-28T04:55:43.127-07:002010-05-28T04:55:43.127-07:00Just take a look at "The path". Everythi...Just take a look at "The path". Everything about it makes it clear that it's main intention is to create atmosphere, emotion, and a challenge to the mind. It has all elements of a game, yet isn't about gaming, first and foremost. It is social commentary, psychological experiment, and is self-referential about its own medium. It's a nice example of what could be done within the gaming medium, if the intentions is a little more than just entertainment.GhanBuriGhanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619736744250898482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-30509911659664001902010-05-26T13:53:17.165-07:002010-05-26T13:53:17.165-07:00Robert: "To paraphrase: Video games contain a...Robert: "To paraphrase: Video games contain art, but are not art themselves."<br /><br />Oh, COME ON. This is truly the goofiest sort of hair-splitting.<br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-58985241969532801362010-05-25T22:32:14.556-07:002010-05-25T22:32:14.556-07:00Robert: if Chris Crawford and Facade are the best ...Robert: if Chris Crawford and Facade are the best we can do for games-as-art, we're in *real* trouble.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-83369134657599246662010-05-25T19:37:41.788-07:002010-05-25T19:37:41.788-07:00I have had that engaged, moved, elated feeling whe...<b>I have had that engaged, moved, elated feeling when playing Shadow of the Colossus. And Planescape: Torment. And Dragon Age: Origins. And Portal. And Grand Theft Auto IV. (Don't laugh.) And Bioshock, a little.<br /><br />But, while that is not an exhaustive list, it is pretty close to one. I've been playing computer games for over thirty years, and I can easily count on my fingers the number of successfully truly artistic moments I have seen in games. </b><br /><br />I notice you did not mention the pinnacle of the RPG series you have been ripping off for fifteen years now. Shame on you!Elzairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14238151381801715569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-11619357457885464202010-05-24T12:48:05.711-07:002010-05-24T12:48:05.711-07:00*sigh* I'm surprised this debate continues. To...*sigh* I'm surprised this debate continues. To paraphrase: Video games contain art, but are not art themselves. Nobody would have batted an eye if Ebert said this about board games, table top games, card games, sports, etc. but somehow saying this about video games is a foul. Worse, all the counter examples are instances of great art in video games, but not of the game itself being great art. The best counter examples, in my opinion, come from the realm of interactive story (not interactive fiction) such as Façade and games by Chris Crawford. But, one can legitimately argue that interactive stories ultimately are AIs that produce art, not games that are art themselves.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10382232327902119343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-68689175198712429072010-05-23T11:33:43.131-07:002010-05-23T11:33:43.131-07:00The number of games that induce a real emotional r...The number of games that induce a real emotional response is very small. Of those, the ones that actually use the interactive medium in any compelling way, the ones that couldn't be equivalently "artistic" if you simply stuck together all the cutscenes, etc. is very close to zero.<br /><br />Braid might qualify.<br /><br />I'm not terribly impressed with Bioshock as a game, but I have seen it mentioned in non-gaming forums as a cutting satire of Objectivism. When you can point to a game as a sort of rebuttal to Ayn Rand novels, that's kind of neat. But again, BioShock really does nothing that couldn't be done in a non-interactive film.PKDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13845833853489965256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-84753198663147932532010-05-23T11:26:42.521-07:002010-05-23T11:26:42.521-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.PKDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13845833853489965256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-9594776326585040982010-05-22T19:03:35.903-07:002010-05-22T19:03:35.903-07:00All discussion of artistic merit aside, Ebert'...All discussion of artistic merit aside, Ebert's argument is that games, as an interactive experience, can't embody the authorial vision which he sees as central to art.<br /><br />I have a number of problems with this argument, but even taking it at face value, might it be possible to think of games not as art but as a tool for creating art? Each play session is an individual artwork created by the player through the medium of the game. Take a look at what this guy has done with Sim City:<br /><br />http://www.viceland.com/blogs/uk-games/2010/05/10/the-totalitarian-buddhist-who-beat-sim-city/<br /><br />... and tell me that's not art. Maybe not the greatest art of all time, but I've seen worse things displayed in art galleries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-76124587170880708072010-05-21T20:29:46.206-07:002010-05-21T20:29:46.206-07:00The answer to the question isn't really straig...The answer to the question isn't really straightfoward, as it depends on how 'strict' (ie traditional) the definition is. If you're really referring to visually satisfying images, then a lot of video games aren't (though Flower is another thing altogether). If we take a more loose, heart-and-soul kind of definition like, say, Wikipedia's then art is more about emotive, creative mediums of expressions, then there are easily genres that could be classed as art. Heavy Rain and RPGs comes to mind when I think of the loose definition, and it is hard to doubt they fall under art.Clhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14518937654622032657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-78640795352784670502010-05-21T18:18:21.549-07:002010-05-21T18:18:21.549-07:00Maybe it wouldn't matter for the commercial as...Maybe it wouldn't matter for the commercial aspects of the industry, but for those of us who play and create video games, it would be nice to get some fair recognition. People who watch classic films and go to the opera are considered "cultured," but us game lovers are just nerds. Games are seen as having nothing valuable to contribute to society, beyond pure entertainment. That's where the sting is.<br /><br />I'd agree with Sam Kahn: games have unique artistic qualities to bring to the table, above and beyond their stories. Take TES4:Oblivion, for instance. The plot is attractive, but not very original: a lone hero finds the king's lost heir, recovers a powerful artifact, and saves the world from an invading demonic horde. It's probably just a variation on or amalgamation of typical fantasy plots that we've all seen before. However, none of the books and movies in which these elements appear have actually allowed me to LIVE those plots, as a character in the story. Oblivion did, and had a unique sort of impact on me as a result. Another unique aspect of Oblivion concerns the fact that, because of its open storyline and numerous sidequests, my experience of the main plot was nuanced, and ended up being different from that of anyone else who has played the game. It became my personal story. So even if its main plot line is a bit trite and simple, I would say that Oblivion is good art in every sense of the words. It's just difficult to make a direct comparison between it and seminal works of film and literature, because its essential nature goes beyond the story to include something entirely different. Is Oblivion as good as, say, the Lord of the Rings? I don't know if I'd go that far, but it's definitely up there. Then there's Myst III: Exile, which taught me something about forgiveness that I suspect a comparable book or film couldn't have taught; because, again, I wasn't just observing the story. I was involved in it. It gripped me almost like a real experience.<br /><br />Obviously, this isn't an academic defense. I'm just describing my personal experiences and reactions to the works I've imbibed over the years. But I would argue that art isn't and shouldn't be defined by the academics. Real art is defined by its ability to move people emotionally, make them think and introspect, and showcase truths about life. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't those who study art academically today build their theories on a study of the classics, which are recognized by their ability to speak to people of all times? Scholars look at the classics and say, "What made this work so powerful?", but they don't decide what's powerful. The people do that. The works of classic authors and filmmakers who impacted the culture of their day, and continue to be appreciated by later generations, are now used as measuring rods for later works. Games are too young to have a good population of their own classics to be "measuring rods," especially since many of the older titles were little-known to begin with (since gaming wasn't so mainstream back then)and are slipping further into obscurity as technology advances. So I would argue that there's not a good basis for judging games accurately on academic grounds. The language of criticism can judge a game on its story alone, but I doubt it has developed enough to take the other elements into account.WriterOfMindshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03848533877998707168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-53238909597605009072010-05-21T13:34:18.479-07:002010-05-21T13:34:18.479-07:00I usually find those people who deny something as ...I usually find those people who deny something as "Art" are artists themselves. They seem to want to keep feeling important by shutting out what isn't their own. <br /><br />People will enjoy video games regardless if they are considered Art or not. Is the industry really going to get a influx of new costumers because some Grand Poo-Bah declares Games are Art?<br /><br />Though these are always fun arguments to goad people with. :)Andrew E Harastyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17001186769929793122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-84318737061382043842010-05-21T12:24:18.639-07:002010-05-21T12:24:18.639-07:00Whether or not a game has a story with depth (or a...Whether or not a game has a story with depth (or a story at all) shouldn't necessarily be a means of gauging a game's value as art. People forget that stories aren't a defining characteristic of games. Games are about interactivity and player involvement. Games as a form have a vocabulary that is unique. Yes, there is some crossover with film, literature, painting, etc, but there are ideas unique to gaming. These unique ideas are what needs to be explored in a discussion of games as art.Sam Kahnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10410276773844583437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-69504599341765460932010-05-21T10:43:28.702-07:002010-05-21T10:43:28.702-07:00If you take art to mean worthwhile and important t...If you take art to mean worthwhile and important then "games are not art" is an insult.<br /><br />If however you take art to mean the art industry then "games are not art" is a compliment.<br /><br />The art industry is nothing to look up to.<br /><br />Elmyr is my homeboy.XIXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08908221875042795396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-12459747185685042212010-05-21T10:37:10.062-07:002010-05-21T10:37:10.062-07:00oh lor', Tony, I didn't mean you! I mean t...oh lor', Tony, I didn't mean you! I mean that prominent games bloggers and professional journalists should be prepared to step up and talk in specifics<br />rather than generalities. Since you asked, I think the best way to learn the language of criticism is to read criticism, and I think film<br />criticism is the most relevant to games because we've borrowed so many of our clothes from there.<br /><br />Babbitt the novel; now, PS:T. I love it to bits. I played a good quarter of it with my mouth hanging open in amazement. But it combines intelligent writing, zingy imagination, ambitious themes, extraordinary visual panache with, sadly, silly pulpiness, women falling out of their clothes, moments of grotesque overwriting, back-and-forth fetch quests and above all long stretches of repetitive combat. It's as if the best that cinema had produced was the Matrix, and that Smith fight was eight times as long.<br /><br />anyway, nice to meet. Jeff, I'll stop drowning your comments section now.Alexis Kennedyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11736695536292614401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-838283724650047992010-05-21T09:52:02.536-07:002010-05-21T09:52:02.536-07:00Babbitt the novel or the film? The novel is at lea...Babbitt the novel or the film? The novel is at least partly about the possibility of failing at redemptive change, just like PS:T. But I haven't read it in years (or, come to think of it, played the game in years), and I couldn't put forth an argument to their parity in the language of criticism-- <br /><br />-- speaking of, other than going to college for four years as a english or film major, what's the starting point for learning that language? (My education at college and after has been narrowly technical). I honestly looked several months ago, specifically in order to be able to have this conversation, but what I found was either hopelessly over my head or aimed at teaching high school students grammar. <br /><br />I have to head to work in a couple minutes, thank you AK for an enjoyable discussion and Jeff for sparking it.Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09541325202438598725noreply@blogger.com