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And ...And so Dungeon Master begat Legends of Valour<br />And Legends of Valour begat The Elder Scrolls<br />And The Elder Scrolls begat Skyrim<br /><br />The next steps for the Grimrock engine is naturally to add free movement, and round the cycle we go again.<br /><br />Unless this time it can evolve in a different direction. Now that would be interesting...CdrJamesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01060044713087923928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-65821168591481500352012-05-14T01:03:43.502-07:002012-05-14T01:03:43.502-07:00I would just say it was a good analysis and thank ...I would just say it was a good analysis and thank you for bringing up design space. Definitely a major thing to thing about when you define the constrains/reach of your engine, which I'm just at a point wrestling with. And about Grimrock and the like, yeah I agree they were a phase in the evolution of dungeoncrawlers, it was just way easier and simpler that the free look of Ultima Underworld and the like. All that said I still think the idea of picking and ancient state of certain genre and blending it with something new we've com up since(not necessarily only graphics), can contribute for new branches of all sorts of seemingly dead evolutionary dead ends. I like to thing of it like kind of writing an alternate history for different genres. :) So Jeff I must say thanks for keeping this particular branch of RPG history still alive and growing!Caladerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18230333222806109821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-88469611452487219392012-05-13T11:57:04.842-07:002012-05-13T11:57:04.842-07:00"I think people are taking Jeff's comment..."I think people are taking Jeff's comments a bit further than he meant them"<br /><br />That's an understatement.<br /><br />I think it was obvious that I was talking about how design space is limited for ONE SPECIFIC DESIGN. Obvious if you read the article, anyway. If you change the design at all, it changes the design space. However, Dungeon Master style games like Grimrock (which again IS A GOOD GAME I AM NOT CRITICIZING) don't lend themselves well to this sort of expansion, which is why the genre moved past them very quickly.<br /><br />But hey, time might prove me wrong. If three years from now indie gaming is full of 3-D, square grid, semi-real time RPGs with timing and physics puzzles, I will happily admit there was more in the design than it has yet shown. I don't think it will happen.<br /><br />- Jeff VogelJeff Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03396854958796097543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-77353331896948556712012-05-13T09:06:54.033-07:002012-05-13T09:06:54.033-07:00But Etrian doesn't have puzzles, does it? Isn&...But Etrian doesn't have puzzles, does it? Isn't the distinguishing characteristic of Dungeon Master et al. type of game that puzzle-solving gameplay occupies a position of at least equal importance to combat? <br /><br />And that subsequent evolution of the RPG/FPS genres led to gradual, but eventually complete removal of puzzle gameplay from the games in the name of accessibility?<br /><br />IMHO, it is a much more crucial distinction than turn-based/RT combat, etc.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18167561532241507050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-79798266413608211842012-05-13T03:01:33.948-07:002012-05-13T03:01:33.948-07:00Dungeon Master-style games didn't so much disa...Dungeon Master-style games didn't so much disappear as evolve - into UU and Wolf 3D. I never really viewed FPSes as a different genre so much as a continuation. There's nothing (in fact, there's never been anything) stopping people from putting back in the 4-character dynamic, except maybe mouse-aiming.<br />And hey, Wizardy 8 tried that, with mixed results.<br /><br />I think people are taking Jeff's comments a bit further than he meant them, but as someone who did this same nostalgia trip back in 2000, let me elaborate a little.<br /><br />There were a chunk of Dungeon Master emulations, remakes and clones back in 2k, and I wasted no time getting my hands on them. But after playing through one version (ahh, the good old days), then the next, I quickly lost interest in spite of my enthusiasm for one very simple reason: it was just Dungeon Master. Every remake, every reiteration was just Dungeon Master.<br /><br />The same puzzles, the same mazes, the same fireball traps. Only now, they were out of order.<br /><br />Wasn't until a few years later that I went back, had some fun with Undercroft (from the Jets'n'Guns guys) and Necro-somethingorather. Same old nostalgia-trip perspective, but with enough new or changed mechanics to make it interesting again. They also had some serious balance issues, but that's another story.<br /><br />Point is, unless you keep branching out and upgrading it, the game runs out of tricks pretty fast. I think that's all Jeff was really saying. Not that it can't be expanded, but that it NEEDS to be expanded. With code. With rewrites and extra features. With outdoors areas. And maybe by nicking someone else's engine...<br /><br />MON FUL IR!<br />(that's FUS RO DAH for old farts like me)Exilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16441510987903219090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-78899082097067074372012-05-13T02:17:15.841-07:002012-05-13T02:17:15.841-07:00They update the player roster every year and the g...They update the player roster every year and the graphics every 2 years.<br /><br />And. That's. It.Exilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16441510987903219090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-90268088687279305892012-05-12T16:54:15.636-07:002012-05-12T16:54:15.636-07:00I have to agree with Eric above. Atlas has done ex...I have to agree with Eric above. Atlas has done extremely well with the old 80s Wizardry style engine for example in their Etrian Odyssey series on the Nintendo DS (3 games) and a 4th coming soon for the Nintendo 3DS. Other games like "The Black Spire" similarly retro have also done well and proven there is still much life left in those old bones.<br /><br />I would also agree that saying there isn't room within those engines/game styles for future games is selling those fertile fields short...they do not lie fallow. <br /><br />The reason is the DS was and is the platform for that style of game...a mix of expectation and return that is delivered to the player. Going back to the Etrian example. The engine is basic Wizardry/Might and Magic but the gameplay includes strategic boss and "named" fights, diverse itemization, diverse tradeskill and class systems that make Wizardry and Might and Magic feel ancient by comparison even though the visual aesthetic is almost identical.Epyxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17207341813040412657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4338724676892513065.post-12624569152036067512012-05-12T08:57:56.020-07:002012-05-12T08:57:56.020-07:00I'm surprised no one has mentioned Etrian Odys...I'm surprised no one has mentioned Etrian Odyssey. Same basic dungeon-crawler style game, but has reached its fourth iteration (in Japan. On its third here) and each one has been a best-seller for its platform, demand actually exceeding supply (seriously, the first one is quite expensive nowadays). They add things to it - to the hub space that most games like this have (Wizardry) and place you in a forest, rather than a dungeon, which feels fresher and it feels like you have more freedom. Also, they have their custom blend of humour and blisteringly difficult battles which feel both old, new, and well-polished. I'd give them a try.Nimuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02722853785756965687noreply@blogger.com